Million Dollar Mindset: Michael Goldman on Building a Legendary Recruiting Career, Surviving Downturns, and Creating Lasting Value

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
Coming up on this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast. What is the value of being a recruiter?

Michael Goldman [00:00:05]:
The value of being a recruiter is that we provide value. Two words.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:10]:
And I'm still, like, captivated that your entire career shifted and changed and broke into the world of recruiting because you met a girl at the bar.

Michael Goldman [00:00:20]:
Yeah, Eileen Kimmel. She was great.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:23]:
Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruitment recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements. Recruitment agency owners. Let's be honest. Clients don't buy from your team. They buy into you. And in a world where AI is automating the bottom end of recruitment, that personal brand is everything. That's why Hoxo built the Personal Brand Bootcamp to help recruitment founders like you turn LinkedIn into a revenue engine.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:58]:
Their Personal Brand Bootcamp is built for founders who don't want to go viral, but who want to build trust, authority, and consistent inbound leads. You'll learn their 3X system, which has helped founders in every niche grow faster with leaner teams. It's a proven system that builds authority and brings clients and candidates to you. You can watch the free masterclass at the link in the show notes, but they limit access, so don't wait. If you like what you see and decide to go ahead with the Hoxo Personal Brand bootcamp, you'll get £500 off. As a listener of the Elite Recruiter Podcast, make sure you tell them we sent you. I am so excited about this podcast episode because one of the things that I truly believe a lot of recruiters don't realize is the value that you bring to the table as a recruiter, the value that you bring to the market, the value that you yourself and the impact that you have on people's lives. And yes, we talk about money a lot of times on this podcast because, like, money's a great hook.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:55]:
The hook for the lessons. But here's the thing. Every single recruiter needs to make sure they have the foundation and the foundation belief and the confidence comes from exactly knowing what we bring to the table. And that's why I'm super excited to have Michael Goldman here to share today, because we're going to have some fun with this. So, Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Michael Goldman [00:02:17]:
Thank you. Lovely to be here. I seen a number of your podcasts. I think they're. They're all great, and you really bring a lot of interesting things to the events. So I look Forward to this.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:28]:
So before we get started, quick 30 second intro.

Michael Goldman [00:02:31]:
Well, the first thing to know is that I've been in this business for. This is my 45th year in recruiting. I am one of two remaining founding members of the Pinnacle Society who's still recruiting. I'm sort of like the Obi Wan Kenobi in some ways of Pinnacle. People are amazed that I can still walk and talk and chew gum at the same time. And so I've been past president. I was the second president back in the early 90s. I'm a lifetime honorary member.

Michael Goldman [00:02:56]:
And as I mentioned, I'm one of the only two remaining actively recruiting founders of the Pinnacle Society. Diana Gazola is the other one up in Boston. I'm president, founder of my own firm, Strategic Associates. Founded the firm back in 1988. So it's been a long time. Gone through various stages of back and forth between wanting to build a great empire and showing everybody the door and wanting to sit by myself and be a single recruiter. But I got into the business in November of 1980. In the fall of 1980, I basically, I was manager of customer service at Charles Lewis Cosmetics in Manhattan.

Michael Goldman [00:03:31]:
There were big times in New York. This is, you know, Jimmy Carter was still president, as a matter of fact. It was the Big Apple. It was the disco days. It was, you know, hanging out. I was single, working in one of the large cosmetics firms at a bachelor pad in New Jersey. You know, I was bulletproof. I could do anything to anyone at any time.

Michael Goldman [00:03:48]:
You know, hung out at all the big places in Manhattan, all the bars, all the discos. And I happened to walk into a. I was actually fired at Charles of the Ritz back in the fall because I was very naive about how corporate things operate. I thought I was just there to do a job. But in reality, you know, it's all politics. And the cosmetics and fragrance industry is a really interesting place to be, but it was not for me. I walked into a club that I normally go to in New Jersey, Angle Cliffs, New Jersey, called the Bicycle Club. I was there to have a couple of drinks, do some dancing, take a look at the inventory.

Michael Goldman [00:04:23]:
I was single at the time, and it was great. And I met a girl at the bar who was a recruiter with Fortune personnel consultants, fpc, they call themselves now. And we were having drinks, and she was talking about what she did and what I do. And she said, you know, you have the type of personality that might do well as a recruiter. You have any interest in interviewing with Fortune and I said, well, what the hell, I'll talk to anybody. I'm from New York. So she made arrangements for me to go into, into Fortune. I had a couple of interviews.

Michael Goldman [00:04:52]:
They were right on 42nd Street, Fifth Avenue, diagonal from the New York Public Library. And I went in wearing the one suit I owned, gray flannel suit. And that day, by the end of the day, I became a recruiter. I had no idea what I was doing. They put me with a firm called K.J. ricklin Associates. @ the time, they had created it just to specialize in manufacturing and procurement. Supply chain on the 10th floor of the building.

Michael Goldman [00:05:15]:
I didn't know anything about manufacturing, I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't know anything about recruiting hr. I knew nothing about nothing. Only I just believed that I could do whatever I wanted to do. And so I went in bullpen environment, sat down with like about 10 other guys in an open bullpen. Out the window we could see the New York Public Library. And in the summertime they used to play steel drums so that when the window was open because they had no air conditioning in these high rises, people on the phone that I was with would hear the steel drums and ask me, you know, where are you calling from? I said, believe it or not, I'm in midtown Manhattan. And the steel drum band.

Michael Goldman [00:05:52]:
Every summer down on the library steps, I learned how to do this business by sitting right across from my mentor. The guy I was assigned to, learned how to recruit him in purchasing. So I'm getting a little bit further into my bio. I don't know if you want me.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:06]:
To do that or not, but I think that's perfect. And I'm still like captivated that your entire career shifted and changed and broke into the world of recruiting because you met a girl at the bar.

Michael Goldman [00:06:18]:
Yeah, Eileen Kimmel. She was great. She was nice looking girl, you know, I was into, you know, plundering the entire female countryside at that time. And so I was open to talking to any good looking woman. And I picked the right one. I guess she picked me.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:34]:
And there goes your entire career, your entire life changed.

Michael Goldman [00:06:37]:
It's amazing. And one of the best things about it is I met my wife, she eventually worked there two years later as secretary to the two presidents of the company. And I met my wife there. And you know, if I hadn't been a recruiter, I wouldn't have done the most amazing recruiting job in my entire life. We've been married, we just celebrated 40 years of marriage.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:55]:
Congrats on that. That's awesome.

Michael Goldman [00:06:56]:
Thank you.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:57]:
All right, so let's talk about these early days and if the recruiters out there like this was pre, almost everything.

Michael Goldman [00:07:04]:
Prehistoric.

Benjamin Mena [00:07:06]:
I didn't want to say that.

Michael Goldman [00:07:07]:
Yeah, it's okay, you can say it. I understand. We had no computers. There was no such thing as computers on the desk. Everything was manual. We sat in, as I said, in an open bullpen. I was right opposite my trainer, and he also ran his desk. And.

Michael Goldman [00:07:21]:
And everybody was open. You could hear everybody on the phone. And that was situated in 42nd Street. It was called Agency Row. So people who are out of work would come around 42nd street and come up with their resumes and want to talk to a recruiter. It was only rotary dial phones, literally dialing for dollars. There were no headsets. There were no faxes.

Michael Goldman [00:07:40]:
We had to learn how to influence human resources people for working job orders, they called them back then. We had to influence them to want to interview. Set up an interview without a resume. You know the old line, well, what would you like? I can tell you more than what's on a resume. Because I didn't want to have to mail a resume. That's how you'd made referrals. And we had our resumes in file drawers next to us. So we had a hot file.

Michael Goldman [00:08:03]:
It's a pump file. And when we wanted to market somebody, if we're talking to on a job order, as we're taking the job order, we'd open up a pump file and we do it, file search to see who would be right. And then the rest of the B candidates would be in all the file draws below that. And we had one fax in the office. It was in front of the president's office. And we'd have to go to him to ask if it was an emergency to fax something out. Only under emergency circumstances. It was an old rapid fax.

Michael Goldman [00:08:30]:
It was on a cylinder. But yeah, I mean, everything was verbal. Everything. You had to do it literally. The old was the old fashioned way. When I train recruiters, I start out by saying, hey, imagine if you went back to your office on Monday and you had no computer, all your resumes were paper, and you had no facts. You had no way of communicating with anybody other than the sound of your voice. It was just pretty amazing.

Michael Goldman [00:08:53]:
And when we did searches on job orders, we have these big red sic directories. And we'd have to go through the red directories to do research, to solicit companies, because there was. There was no access to rapid information. I Had to be on the phone because my instructor, my other recruiter across from me, if I wasn't on the phone, he'd say in a low voice, hey, Mike, you're not on the phone. Why aren't you on the phone? Do me a favor, get on the phone. Everything was planned manually. We had manual planners. They had one week of training.

Michael Goldman [00:09:24]:
And they said to us, in training, you have to keep track of your numbers, how many calls you're making. So here, at the end of every day, write down the number of calls you made. And I refuse to do that. I hate numbers. I said, I'm not doing this. I'm getting on the phone. I'm spending my time talking to people. And I will say something interesting about the early days, too.

Michael Goldman [00:09:42]:
When I went to my second firm after Fortune, I went to another, smaller organization. I had been specializing in procurement for two years. That's all I did. Nationwide purchasing professionals. And I went to this other firm, and they said, we want you to specialize in manufacturing systems. And I'm an old history major. I had no idea what manufacturing systems were. Then they told me how I could go about learning about it.

Michael Goldman [00:10:05]:
So I had to get through talking to people about an area that I specialized in that I knew nothing about. But I figured out how to do it. I would go home at night and I'd take all these resumes of people that I wanted to meet and I wanted to recruit, and I'd ask them a very important question so that they never knew, that they didn't know what manufacturing systems was. I'd say, share this with me. If you were talking to someone who didn't know anything about what manufacturing systems is, an HR person or whatever it might be, how would you describe the value of what manufacturing system brings to an organization? Explain to me what you actually do. As if I don't know anything about what you do. Ironically, it was the truth. But these people started getting very basic with me, and I would be taking notes.

Michael Goldman [00:10:51]:
My candidates taught me what my area of specialty actually was.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:56]:
So with all this.

Michael Goldman [00:10:57]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:58]:
Like, it sounded like you really had to learn the. The art of influence.

Michael Goldman [00:11:03]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:04]:
And you've seen so many changes.

Michael Goldman [00:11:07]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:08]:
Before we start talking about all that, like, I want to kind of jump forward a little bit so, you know, you made the switch to another group and then fast forward what, push you to go start your own firm. Like, give me, like, the. Right before that happened.

Michael Goldman [00:11:21]:
Sure. Well, we were up in New York. I'm originally from the New York metro area. My wife And I got married in 85. We decided it was too expensive to live on Long island, where we lived right near where the recruiting for I used to walk to work. It was too expensive and it was too crowded. My brother lived in Austin, Texas. So we decided, let's move to Austin, Texas.

Michael Goldman [00:11:40]:
I have been down here before, you know, going to clubs and stuff like that, doing my thing. But after I got married, my wife, without ever having been here, God bless her, she said, let's get in the covered wagon. Let's pack everything up, quit our jobs, and let's go down to Austin, Texas, and let's find jobs. Because he was in hr. Find jobs, make them successful, build a house. And so we did that. We had a thousand dollars to our name. We came down to Austin like, you know, the pioneers.

Michael Goldman [00:12:10]:
And within six months, we were building a house. Somehow, I don't know how we qualify for it. And I joined Management Recruiters. Management Recruiters. I was there. Great guy, great owner, since passed away. So I was able to transfer what I learned from the Fortune franchise organization to Mr. I became the Southwest Region Recruiter of the year.

Michael Goldman [00:12:29]:
I opened up a manufacturing group there at Management Recruiters. So I started building that. And after two years with them, I was the top recruiter in the region. Marty Hansen, God bless him, you know, was the owner. And I said, marty, it's time for me to go. It's time for me to start my own business. I had 50k in my pocket back then. And he said, mike, I'm going to give you your files.

Michael Goldman [00:12:51]:
You know, you brought something. You created something that was not here before. He was a mensch, as we say. And so I set myself up in an executive suite just by myself here in Austin. And I started calling. I tagged all my files, I recreated my business on my desk. It was not a big deal. I do the same thing.

Michael Goldman [00:13:12]:
And I figured, you know, I'd just add to whatever cash I had. And there was no question about it. I knew I was going to be successful because I knew how to talk, I knew how to do the business. I'd have been successful at that point. And so that's why I started the business. I eventually, you know, hired one person, two people. I had a group of about four people back then in the early days. As a matter of fact, I brought Danny Cahill in to train my staff when he first started training.

Michael Goldman [00:13:37]:
So Danny and I go way back. I mean, we. You know, I remember that young face coming in, sharing all this knowledge. But there was also another guy who was a very good trainer. He was the progenitor of Danny Cahill. He was Danny Cahill before there was a Danny Cahill. And that was a fellow by the name of Tony Byrne. Okay.

Michael Goldman [00:13:55]:
I don't know if you know that name.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:56]:
I've heard the name.

Michael Goldman [00:13:57]:
I heard 30 steps to success in recruiting. Tony was a great guy. He and I became friends. He was the guy who asked me if I was interested in starting something called the Pinnacle Society. And he and I together, we gathered together, you know, some people who were very successful in our business. And the reason we started Pinnacle was because going to all of the conferences and stuff, we were getting bored. There weren't people who were presenting subjects that we were really interested in or challenged us at all. So we decided to get people together.

Michael Goldman [00:14:27]:
And so Tony and I and Diana Gozzola and a number of other people, we had about 20 people at the beginning. We started the Pinnacle Society. I was starting my organization right off because Pinnacle was founded in 89. I started my company in 88. So, you know, whenever you want to stick that subject into our conversation, feel free to do so. I can elaborate on the evolution of the Pinnacle Society as well.

Benjamin Mena [00:14:49]:
I. I'll do that in a second. But I want to go back to, like, your manager. You literally walked up to him and said, like, hey, I'm done. And he literally just, like, let you be. Gave you your book of, like, almost your book of business, and said, like, that's awesome. Thank you for the help.

Michael Goldman [00:15:03]:
It wasn't almost my book of business. It was in my entire book of business he gave me. Oh. Because back then, it was still physical files. So, you know, we still didn't have computers on our desk. So let me show. Take my files. And he was a real human being.

Michael Goldman [00:15:16]:
You know, he appreciated what I brought.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:20]:
What did you do different than that? Made you one of the top recruiters compared to everybody else.

Michael Goldman [00:15:26]:
I think that I just. I knew no fear. I just kept on going. I kept on making calls. You know, the whole fortune mentality of dialing for dollars, just volume. See, we. Back then, also, people answered their phones. They don't do that anymore.

Michael Goldman [00:15:42]:
There was no other mode of communication. There was no computer. There was no text. There was no nothing. There was no email. It was all phone.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:52]:
When you say that you were not afraid, you just do a dive right in, you know, do you see that as, like, fear being an issue with a lot of recruiters?

Michael Goldman [00:16:00]:
Oh, yeah, I see the market. A lot of fear.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:02]:
Explain that.

Michael Goldman [00:16:03]:
Well, it happened at a Momentous occasion, unfortunately a tragic occasion. And since 911 I've seen the marketplace make a decision. There was a decision to be made on how to react to 911 and unfortunately the political marketplace, social leadership made a decision to react in fear, to make us check everything before we got onto a plane. They led us into the world of fear of constantly looking under our beds for terrorists, of going to war that had no relationship to what was happened when we were attacked. What they should have done was a police action. They should have moderated the fear basis, the mentality and should let us strongly into this, you know, you don't have anything to be afraid of. We're going to go into police action, we're going to find bin Laden, we're going to kill them or do whatever. But instead they identified a way to con, to, I don't want to say necessarily control the population but to manipulate people based upon fear mongering.

Michael Goldman [00:17:03]:
And that injected fear into the marketplace. It made us afraid of the unknown, of you know, all the, the terrorists, the, you know, if on the marketplace side if you don't have these products you're going to be bad, you know, you're going to smell bad, you're going to look bad, you're going to do this bad, you know, so you need to buy these things in industry. And I was, you know, know have always been in manufacturing. It was if you don't cover your butt in the next six months, six to 12 months and start making money, you're out. So the world of industry became a place where it became short term planning. Fear of everybody above you, fear of everybody below you and just a dysfunctional environment. And that was all based in my humble belief. What I have observed on the reaction to 9 11.

Michael Goldman [00:17:56]:
We had one path we could have taken and instead we took a different path.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:00]:
And how does you know? I see fear happening in a lot of recruiters too. It's a conversation that I think a lot of people deal with. How does one start to overcome that.

Michael Goldman [00:18:11]:
Master the wonderful art of communication to start listen to listening to people. When I first got into the business it was all about volume phone calls via phone calls. Control, control, control. That was the magic word. Control everybody. Over the years I realized that it wasn't about control, it was about influencing. You can't control people. But if people want to reduce their fear, they need to be able to plan effectively, they need to be able to understand how to talk to people, how to find out what motivates them, how to find out where's the value in dealing with you and most importantly, to understand who they are as recruiters and the value they bring to the marketplace.

Michael Goldman [00:18:53]:
I can't tell you how many people I've dealt with in our industry in recruiting who don't know what recruiters do and don't know how to articulate what we do for a living. And one of the reasons is because of all the emphasis on projecting ourselves as successes with dollars and cents with money. It was back in the day we were getting awards. You know the phrase big billers? What is a big biller? It's somebody who makes a lot of money, and a client would say, well, what's a big biller? I do a lot of business, and the biller is I bill you for all those fees. Well, so your success is based upon what I'm giving you? Yeah, well, you know, I mean, it's a dichotomy. Our life, our identity is based upon how much money we make. And to me, over the years, one of the things I've learned, and it's something that I would instill to younger recruiters. It's not a matter of associating yourself with how much money you make.

Michael Goldman [00:19:47]:
They cannot bury you in the bottom of the pyramid with all the gold and the jewels. It's all about legacy issues. It's all about value. What success, what value do you bring to people's lives? And if you can understand, it's amazing. If you can understand what you do and why you do it, there's the opportunity to reduce your fear. You have a level of confidence that's been established.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:11]:
So in saying that, like, you know, there's a lot of people that, like, get excited about, like, the money, which is awesome. When do you start seeing people start to move from it's all about the dollar bills to it's all about the value.

Michael Goldman [00:20:27]:
It's at various times, I tell you, because I still see, for instance, a lot of my colleagues in Pinnacle. I love my colleagues at Pinnacle. They're great people. You haven't met a greater bunch of recruiters in your life. But there's even part of an organization within Pinnacle that is segmented by people who want to compete for the dollars and dollars and cents. The numbers are important. So there's no one age in the business. It can be people.

Michael Goldman [00:20:52]:
I think it's the more you've been in the business, the longer you've been in the business, the more you understand the value proposition of what we do. I think that's one of the keys. But you know, people who are new into the business are constantly hammered. I mean, that's not to put aside that we're in this business to make money and make a lot of money. But there has to come a point in time where you're confident that, you know, I know how to make money in this business. I don't have to be constantly asked, how much are you making this year? You know, report on your billings, on your cash in and crap like that. Even when I go to a Pinnacle meeting, someone might ask me, how would you cash in last year? I'd say, doesn't matter. Ask me what value I brought to somebody in particular that sticks in my mind.

Michael Goldman [00:21:33]:
I can tell you about that. But in the cash in, the whole billing thing, I think that institutes a lot of fear in the beginning as well, because you have to make money for someone to invest in you within a recruiting firm. Totally understand that. But you also have to learn how to build in the confidence of the value of what you do as a recruiter and the process that you're able to offer your clients and your candidates that's so important to lessening fear.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:00]:
Well, let's stop right there. What is the value of being a recruiter?

Michael Goldman [00:22:04]:
The value of being a recruiter is that we provide value. Two words. We provide value. What we actually do is we introduce strangers to each other and we help them. We understand what their career, their career strategy or talent acquisition strategy might be, because nobody asked them about that stuff. And we help them to adapt it to the marketplace. But the short form answer to that is that we provide. We are able to help them manage a process on both sides of the avenue, candidate and client, that's productive, that gives both parties value.

Michael Goldman [00:22:42]:
I can't tell you how many people. I have almost 200 recommendations on my LinkedIn profile. And some of those are people that I've actually referred to. Clients who didn't get the job, some who didn't even get an interview. But they found my preparation to them, the perspectives that I shared with them about the interview process, they valued it so much that they really, they offered to give me a recommendation. So it's not all about just, you know, turning the key on the engine. It's what, you know, what's under the hood and what you can share with people in the marketplace. See what I mean?

Benjamin Mena [00:23:16]:
I definitely see what you mean. And it's one of those things. I feel like I came into recruiting at one of those college shops where turn and burn, they love former college athletes. You jump in Start learning how to do it. I felt like I didn't understand foundationally the impact of a recruiter until years later. Even with me spending like thousands and thousands of hours, like smiling, calling and dialing, making placements. Yeah, I didn't understand for a long time. Like, when do you start to see people like, oh, I get it.

Michael Goldman [00:23:51]:
It depends on who is training them and who's surrounding them and the culture of the firm that they're with. Actually, I also train as well as from a desk and run searches. I train recruiters domestically and overseas. I've done that for years, decades. And one of the firms I've been working with most recently totally changed their mantra. You know, to understand how to articulate the value they bring to clients and candidates. How to talk about consultative recruiting versus transactional recruiting. That's a big subject for me.

Michael Goldman [00:24:26]:
Anybody who takes a look at some of the videos that I have on my LinkedIn profile will see that knowing the difference between consultative recruiting and transactional recruiting is so different, is so important to your development as a recruiter. And the sooner you have that injected into your training, they could be in the business for a year, two years, three years. There's a whole different verbiage you use as a consultative recruiter rather than transactional one. I mean, you know, I've just been working with this one firm about their website. I've edited their websites and the it moves them from transactional junior level recruiting to more consultative recruit, speaking in more consultative terms. And this doesn't have to take a lot of time to do it when you're explaining on the phone or anything like that. The more you can master that verbiage, the language of a consultant and the language of value, the more successful you'll be. And it doesn't matter how many years you're in the business.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:25]:
Well, actually, I want to take a step back and this kind of you sharing this made me think of this. I mean, you fell into recruiting because you met a girl at the bar. Yeah, I fell into recruiting because, I mean, that's a whole other story. But almost everybody. This isn't the job that we came out of college or didn't go to school. For many of us, this is the land of misfit toys.

Michael Goldman [00:25:46]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:47]:
But I think one of the things that we've. And we talked about this offline, that recruiters, when they understand the value, they also made the decision that this is their career.

Michael Goldman [00:25:58]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:59]:
What does that switch typically happen?

Michael Goldman [00:26:02]:
Well, it can happen. I say they have to build up some Success on the desk, to have confidence in themselves. Because almost everybody starts getting into this business wondering, all right, I'll do this until, you know, I find what I'm really supposed to be doing and make some money doing it. So if they. If they make money doing this, if they actually start closing deals in the first, let's say anywhere from three to five years, that's sort of an earlier. A young window for them to be able to start latching on to the mentality and the verbiage of consultative recruiting.

Benjamin Mena [00:26:36]:
Okay. Once again, unfortunately, it kind of goes around money and the successful placements and the environment that you're in and all this other stuff. But, you know, let's talk about environment, because you start your own firm the next year. You helped found the Pinnacle Society. And I've had a chance to meet many of the members, and they're absolutely phenomenal. But let's talk about that evolution. How have you seen that society change over the years?

Michael Goldman [00:27:00]:
The Pinnacle Society.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:01]:
The Pinnacle Society, yeah.

Michael Goldman [00:27:02]:
How it's changed. We started off with maybe about 15 people, 20 people or so. We were all kind of friends. We became friends. We got together twice a year, and we were egos out of control. It was like an excuse to brag to each other, eat expensive food, go out and buy, you know, Rolex wristwatches, and we fed each other's egos. We also talked about, you know, some of the challenges we've had on our desks. Our meetings were very different than they are now.

Michael Goldman [00:27:37]:
What Pinnacle has evolved into, thanks to a couple of very, very smart people who became officers at Pinnacle. It evolved eventually into much more organized topics, meetings, and it grew from maybe 20 people to the 80 plus that we are now. And plus, we have a backlog of people who are asking to join probably on a regular basis, maybe about 10 recruiters out there. And they had to manage. We got so big, we had to manage how much time we get people even to introduce themselves because we don't see each other but twice a year. In the early days, we were a wild bunch. You know, you give some of these dysfunctional recruiters a lot of money and an opportunity to exercise their egos, and we can, you know, be kind of wild, wild people. But there were great things that we learned, and it was a smaller but very tight organization.

Michael Goldman [00:28:33]:
And it was a lot of fun. I mean, great people, great people. That's the common thing all through the years about Pinnacle. We've always had the highest quality individuals, personally and professionally, within the ranks of the membership.

Benjamin Mena [00:28:48]:
Oh, I kind of want to also talk about evolution too. Like, you've seen a lot through the changes in the recruiting world. What has been one of your favorite evolutions since the prehistoric days?

Michael Goldman [00:29:02]:
Access to information. You know, the ability to leverage the computer to be able to learn more about what's going on in the market, to be able to connect with people. You know, I use LinkedIn Recruiter, for instance, religiously to manage technology, to learn more about people, to be able to communicate more effectively, to be more intelligent. When you go out into the marketplace, I don't quote numbers. There's some people out there who are very well versed in the marketplace, in Wall street and the market and stuff like that. I'm an old history major. You know, I don't like math, I don't like numbers. So I think that's the thing that I've enjoyed the most and the ability, it gives me the ability to share the information that I've learned over the years with people in the recruiting industry.

Michael Goldman [00:29:47]:
So, you know, being able to do zoom calls and stuff, I used to have to schlep all over the place. I went to South Africa for two weeks. It was an amazing trip. I went on safari. Good friend of mine, she still owns her firms there in Cape Town and Joburg. It was a wonderful experience. But now I get to do stuff, you know, by webinar and what have you, so it saves me time.

Benjamin Mena [00:30:08]:
What has been one of your least favorite evolutions?

Michael Goldman [00:30:13]:
Ah, there you go. I'm not sure how this is going to evolve. I'm really skeptical about AI. My impression so far is that AI is a way to outsource communication so that somebody else has to do it. We talked about fear. The one thing I am afraid of is that communication will continue to deteriorate because of that, I'm going to be out of the industry. I may be even in the ground someplace, I don't know by the time that happens. But what I'm seeing, the fear I have about AI and I have a video out on that, AI versus AI is that people will use AI to do all of their communication.

Michael Goldman [00:30:53]:
And as a result, our ability to communicate will atrophy. That's something that really concerns me. We had a presentation at the Pinnacle Society a couple years ago, chatgpt, and it was amazing. I mean, I signed up with a consulting firm right away, and then I wound up spending a couple grand and then didn't do anything with it. But, you know, it was very impressive on what the potential could be. I'm just afraid that it's that shiny gold coin that will suck you in. And then all of a sudden, one day you'll look around, you'll say, wait a minute. How do I write? I have to write a note to this person, an email or.

Michael Goldman [00:31:30]:
Because it's one of the things about our industry. Recruiters really have to understand and have an appreciation for the art of communication. It's so important.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:41]:
Where does one go to to keep on learning and refining that art?

Michael Goldman [00:31:45]:
Go to the well, for recruiters who are not members of Pinnacle. Make a friend with a Pinnacle member. You know, ask Pinnacle members to do some training, myself included. Of course. When I train people, I always tell them, let's talk about objections. I'll knock out any objection you get and then throw me more, because I love objections. But being able to do it, you know, live and get under the hood. The training industry that I see is talking about how to scale your business, how to turn a recruiting firm into McDonald's, how to make money and then retire, how to build a business, how to use technology.

Michael Goldman [00:32:22]:
But where we're falling short are the under the hood topics of when you call to develop business with a hiring authority, what do you say? How do you articulate who you are and the value you present? I love the phrase seek first to understand before being understood. It's so important. How do you ask questions of people that you're talking with in the marketplace? Prospective candidates who are not actively looking, who are A level candidates? How do you open them up? And it's usually very simple. So where recruiters. To answer your question, another long answer to your short question is find people to train you who have been doing it and doing it successfully.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:08]:
Yeah, I absolutely love that. And I think that's a good idea. Hit up a Pinnacle member yourself and just like, hey, come speak to us.

Michael Goldman [00:33:15]:
Yeah, at any of the conferences I know we have a Pinnacle panel speaking at the next NAPS conference. Anytime you're going to have a conference, invite people in from Pinnacle. You know, it's an amazing resource for our industry.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:26]:
It's kind of funny. I now get, like, requests from podcast listeners, like, hey, this Pinnacle member, can you have them on the podcast sometime soon?

Michael Goldman [00:33:34]:
There you go. Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:36]:
Well, so, you know, looking at, like, all the changes and how much has changed in recruiting, is the same reason why recruiters failed back then, the same reason why recruiters fail now? Or has that evolved also?

Michael Goldman [00:33:50]:
In some ways it's evolved, but in some ways it's also very similar. People get into recruiting for different reasons. And they're trained by business owners for different reasons. So to understand the motivation of who the recruiting firm owner, what their motivation is, it bleeds downhill. So there's an old Italian saying, roughly translated means the fish stinks from the head. So what is the motivation of the business owner? Are they there to flip as many burgers as possible, or do they want to give you the tools to be really, really successful in the real world? So that's what recruiters, especially at a young age, need to understand. And I failed at building a business back, I think around 2000 or so. I had a multiple million dollar business, about 20 employees, but I failed.

Michael Goldman [00:34:39]:
I found it afterwards, unfortunately, because I wanted to build a business for the wrong reasons. And I've talked to some of my Pinnacle colleagues who own their recruiting firms, and I've asked them the question on occasion, why are you building a recruiting firm? What's your motivation? And believe it or not, if it wasn't to make money, they couldn't answer the question. They're smart people, brilliant people, but some of them haven't asked themselves the basic questions. And so it bleeds down to the recruiters who are looking to get into the business or the people who are looking to get into the business.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:15]:
I definitely love that. That's a different answer that I've probably seen before. Well, let me just kind of like ask you another question. Just like.

Michael Goldman [00:35:20]:
Sure.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:21]:
Looking back, back on everything, like, what has been one of your favorite things about being a recruiter?

Michael Goldman [00:35:26]:
Well, I guess this will sound kind of corny, but bringing value to people's lives. I could drop dead tomorrow. I could go out of business tomorrow. I've been through five different major downturns in the marketplace. I'm still here. But quite frankly, I can look back at the people that I've done business with and really feel at peace with the fact that I brought so much value to these folks. I've changed their lives for the better. And you'll note that I didn't say I made a lot of money doing this, because I have.

Michael Goldman [00:35:55]:
But it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:58]:
Well, that kind of flips into my next question for you. Like, you've been a recruiter, you've been part of Pinnacle. You've been training. Like, you've been giving and giving and giving. If you could pick a legacy that you'd leave for recruiting, what would be that legacy?

Michael Goldman [00:36:11]:
Well, the first thing that pops in my mind is he showed us how to do it the right way. You know, I've spoken at Pinnacle. I've spoken in a lot of organizations, and someday when I kick off, I hope they'll be able to say, you know, he really knew how to do it the right way, and he taught us how to do it. So, in essence, paying it forward, you know, that's one of the most important legacies I can give to. To the industry, I guess.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:34]:
And, you know, we'll say, out of all the recruiters that you've seen over the years, outside of the focus of adding value, would you say the top? And the reason why I asked this question is because, like, there are so many successful recruiters.

Michael Goldman [00:36:46]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:47]:
You know, I've seen introverts. What I think is an introvert billing 3 million. I've seen extroverts billing, like, huge numbers. What do you think are the top three attributes of a successful recruiter?

Michael Goldman [00:37:01]:
They do what they do consistently. For instance, I'm never impressed with somebody who says, hey, I did a million dollars on the desk. I did 2 million. The next year, I did 3 million next. Come back in 30 years and tell me what you've been doing. Every year. Hasn't been consistently that. There have been people who have done millions of dollars on the desk, and they're gone within a couple years, they blow out their tires.

Michael Goldman [00:37:23]:
So consistency is important, I think. Ethics, the honesty of what they do is important and how much they respect the art of communication. I listen to people. Of course, I'm not perfect, as my daughter, grandson will always tell me, but I always try to listen and to digest. As a matter of fact, it's interesting. It's one of the things that I really like about your podcast, because when I listen to them, I can hear you listening, and you respond to what you hear, and you ask insightful questions. So I can tell that you have a certain mastery of the art of communication. So that's one of the things that's impressed me about your podcast.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:07]:
Well, thank you. Many episodes of it not working out as I wanted.

Michael Goldman [00:38:13]:
We don't get to see the failures. That's the thing.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:17]:
For those listening, it's kind of funny. There's, like, times where I literally, I get done recording and I'll go for a run or at night, I'm like, I should have just asked this question. Like, I planned on asking this. Why didn't I ask it? I get angry at myself for, like, not finding ways to ask the right question. It's kind of funny. But that's. That's a topic for another day.

Michael Goldman [00:38:33]:
But I'll just leave that with you before we move on. The reason for that is you're constantly sort of germinating. You're planting seeds, and they're growing at different rates of speed so that you know what you think about later on to ask the question. Because the same thing happens to me, you know, it didn't germinate. It's like when you were a kid and your parents gave you so much advice. My father always gave me advice that I never listened to. But it wasn't until later on in life that all of a sudden the time capsule opened up and it's the same thing happens with you. You have all these questions, you know, to ask these successful people, and all of a sudden something will pop into your head later on just because they're all like little time capsules.

Michael Goldman [00:39:13]:
And it's great. If you didn't have them, that would diminish your capability. But you have them, so that's good, a good thing.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:19]:
Well, thank you for that. We've covered a lot. We've covered, like, the start of Pinnacle. We've covered the evolution of the Pinnacle society. We covered the start of you recruiting and how so much has changed in recruiting, but at the same time, so much hasn't. We've talked about the future. Before we jump over to the quickfire questions, is there anything else that you want to share with recruiters, kind of about any of the stuff that we covered?

Michael Goldman [00:39:45]:
Well, you know, talk about germinating. I made notes before I got on with you. Phone calls, for instance. That's a hot topic. Phone calls, you know, volume phone calls or inmails or whatever you do. And I'm a big believer in the quality of conversation, the quality of communication, rather than the quantity. So that's one thing I would say, you know, communication is king. We covered.

Michael Goldman [00:40:10]:
Let's see. Oh, yeah. One of the things about obsession, about portraying yourself as successful through the cash that you make. If you are talking to a potential client and you want to talk to them about why they should do business with you, if you're constantly talking about the value of what you do, then how can you present yourself to the marketplace as a quote business big biller? Your face to the market is big biller. I make a lot of money, but then your face to potential clients is the value I bring to the process. How you differentiate yourself for all the other recruiting firms out there in the marketplace is very key and very important. Maybe we can do this on another podcast, because I got a lot of stuff that I can respond to that. But that's.

Michael Goldman [00:40:54]:
That's different. That's the dichotomy right there. You know, you can't present yourself to the marketplace within your industry as king of dollars and then turn around and present yourself to your market, your potential clients, as we're about successful process and communications and stuff is a disconnect.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:13]:
You're probably going to laugh at this. And for the listeners, you're like, you guys will laugh too. Like, I actually don't like putting numbers most of the time in the podcast titles, but it's one of those things, you know, so often I get done with a interview and I'm like, oh, my God. Like, the tip that this person gave, like, or she gave or he gave is just like, I think it can change a recruiter's life. And if I do sometimes put a number in there, I do see a difference in the amount of downloads compared to. Not like, it's one of those things. Like, there's a few times where I'm like, I don't want to do it. But like, she said something that I know can change somebody's life.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:45]:
So it goes in there. And I see the difference in the downloads compared to one that didn't. I a B test stuff constantly. Well, anyways, like, you know, we covered a bunch and I want to jump over to the quickfire questions and they don't need to be. They don't need to be quick answers.

Michael Goldman [00:42:00]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:01]:
But let's just say this. Like, everything that you know, like, all the training you've done, all the recruiting you've done, all the successful placements you've done, if you had somebody that walks into or hits you up on a zoom call and says, this is my first year As a recruiter, 2025, you've seen success. What can I do personally to make recruiting a successful career?

Michael Goldman [00:42:21]:
For me, the first thing to do is to start with patience. I didn't mention this, but I've been a student for a couple of decades in something called Krav Maga. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but it's the Israeli Self Defense Tactical System that's taught to Mossad and the IDF. And I've been a student for about 21 years, and I was the oldest Krav Maga student at the time. I started when I was about 51 or 52, and I've been doing this now for 21 years. And one of the things that I've learned through, you know, getting out on the mat with 20 year olds and 30 year olds and stuff like that is I remember what it was like for me to step out onto the mat the first time as a 51, 52 year old, looking like Jabba the Hutt and having all these kids bouncing around around me. You know, I was constantly criticizing myself for not being able to do something or another. And I realized that one of the things you need to do is be your own best friend.

Michael Goldman [00:43:16]:
Just like training in the Krav Maga. Understand what you want to accomplish when you're training. Pick something. When some people attend my training sessions, I notice that, you know, they're coming to be entertained, they're coming to be given information. I want them to say, okay, I got to prepare to be trained, what I want to accomplish and be your own best friend. When you hear that voice in your head saying, oh, my God, I'm terrible, or I did this wrong, I did that wrong, don't criticize yourself because you're in a learning situation. Have patience and let it come to you. And I say the same thing with junior students who I still work with.

Michael Goldman [00:43:58]:
I've taught, refused to be a victim programs for women and for LGBTQ residents here in Austin, a couple of classes for them. And these are people who've never thought in terms of, you know, when you're coming toward them to go, I calm them down, you know, and I help them to learn how to train, how to learn. And that's such an important thing.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:20]:
Well, same question. But for the old dogs that have been around the block, we say like maybe like two decades, a decade or two, or maybe three, what advice would you give to them?

Michael Goldman [00:44:30]:
And they were recruiting.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:32]:
Yeah.

Michael Goldman [00:44:32]:
Okay. Think about what you've learned over the years and what value it's given to you and think about your future and where you want to get to since you're in this business and figure out what you still have to learn and see if you can discover something from your past that you've learned that you can receive greater value from. Because sometimes we ignore or we don't realize the lessons of the past. The longer you've been around, the more you forget. You know, I love beginner classes at Prav because, you know, you get back into the beginner stuff. Unfortunately, we also live in a society that is ageist. Once you get some gray hairs, I mean, look at LinkedIn. Look at all the reels you see in LinkedIn.

Michael Goldman [00:45:15]:
They're all fresh faced, young, 25 year old people who are telling you, based upon my experience, this is How I recommend that you have a wonderful life, you know. So true. So we live in an ageist environment but unfortunately you have to look at yourself as constantly reinventing yourself. Okay. It's a process.

Benjamin Mena [00:45:37]:
Has there been a book that's had a huge impact in your career?

Michael Goldman [00:45:41]:
Yeah. One is Sun Tzu. Okay. His book. Because I really see myself as being a warrior over a lifetime. So when you get downturns like you know, 08 09. When you get 9 11. I've had experiences during downturns where every single bit of my business has gone off the table.

Michael Goldman [00:45:57]:
I've had to recreate my company and bring in business fresh. So Sun Tzu to me reinforces my image of individuals, us as being sort of warriors in the marketplace. This is a tough ass business. This is very, very tough to be successful doing. I have a younger brother here in Austin who was in information technology before he retired. He said to me on a number of occasions, mike, I can't believe what you do for a living, man. How did you survive? So I think Sun Tzu was one. Oh, there's a terrific training between, believe it or not, an audio.

Michael Goldman [00:46:32]:
The Secrets of Power Negotiating. This is a guy I discovered years ago, decades ago, Roger Dawson. I don't know if he's still alive, but I know that they have it on Amazon in audio. He was one of the best. He gave me some of the best negotiating strategies that I've heard. So the Secrets of Power Negotiating by Roger Dawson.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:55]:
Awesome. You just said a few minutes ago that because of some of the downturns that you've been through, you pretty much lost your entire book of business.

Michael Goldman [00:47:02]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:47:03]:
When that happened, what did you do to rebuild your book?

Michael Goldman [00:47:08]:
The first thing I did was to get my mindset into warrior mentality. So you have one person. That's one of the best things about what I learned to do in this business. I learned how to develop business, recruit all the pieces of this business I learned how to do. I didn't rely on recruiters or researchers to find people for me or find and solicit for business. I had to do it all myself. So I had an advantage. So I know what my industry is.

Michael Goldman [00:47:36]:
I keep the attitude of being a thought leader in the recruiting world, talent acquisition in our business. I mean there were times when I just had to sit there, you know, and plan what I was going to do. And what I do with my plan is I, I carve it down to bite sized chunks. I cover my day into 30 minute increments for every 30 minutes I'm doing something different. And I always had a TV on in my office. My entire career on my own, I always had a TV on. So I'd have, you know, old movies on. Sometimes I'd have MSNBC on.

Michael Goldman [00:48:10]:
I get pissed off about politics. You know, I get myself energized. What the hell is he doing? And then I'd feed on that energy. But most importantly, I knew I've done it before so I could do it again. You know, you just figure it out, and you talk to people, and if you know how to identify the value they present to the marketplace, it doesn't matter whether the market is downturned or not.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:33]:
Love that.

Michael Goldman [00:48:34]:
And all you have to do is close maybe a couple of deals, a quarter. You don't have to do volume business to make a lot of money in this business.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:42]:
That is so true.

Michael Goldman [00:48:43]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:43]:
Well, you know, we just talked about how you rebuilt a desk. What is one of the biggest failures that you had to work through?

Michael Goldman [00:48:50]:
One of the biggest failures I had.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:52]:
About you had to work through in the recruiting world?

Michael Goldman [00:48:56]:
What I mentioned earlier in this conversation is, is that I found out that I was building a business for the wrong reasons. That was my biggest failure. And what I found out in looking inward to myself was there's a great book. And here's another book to add to the list. The E Myth. For anybody who wants to build a business, the E Myth is a great book. But I found out that the reason I was trying to build a business is because I wanted people to like me. I was looking for their acceptance.

Michael Goldman [00:49:24]:
I was looking for their praise. Because when I built the business, about half the business that was coming in was because of me. And they just didn't realize that they would do the business. And, you know, the guy who woke up on their home plate and thought he hit a home run. And so I was building it the wrong way. And if I hadn't done that, knowing what I know now, I could build a business very successfully. But I just, you know, life presents you with certain limits because the end is all of a sudden, you know, your mortality hit you in the face. So I would say the biggest failure in the recruiting business that I've experienced, and I regret to this day, was I was trying to build a business for the wrong reasons.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:04]:
Well, kind of, you know, looking back again, like, with everything that, you know now, if you got the chance to sit back down with yourself, I think, like 1988, when you started your own firm, would you tell yourself, put away.

Michael Goldman [00:50:17]:
The Money, save the money. I was always a big believer in spending money on the company. And it will grow back. Everything you invest in the company will come back in spades. And I found that doesn't happen necessarily. Put money away, put cash away, squirrel it away for cold times, because that'll happen. And understand that people will not love your business as much as you do. You know what I'm talking about?

Benjamin Mena [00:50:47]:
I know exactly what you're talking about.

Michael Goldman [00:50:49]:
And don't assume that they will. And don't take it personally if they don't. You'll be much smarter. You'll put cash away. You know, you'll be prepared for the bad times and understand that bringing people in and training them, I'll be able to train them on more effective topics.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:04]:
Well, and this is my favorite question. You've definitely had a chance to talk to a lot of recruiters. Like, they've asked you a ton of questions, and I'm sure many of them are wrapped around business development and that kind of stuff. Is there a question that you wish they would actually ask you and almost never do?

Michael Goldman [00:51:21]:
I guess, you know, really, what are the one or two main things that I should learn to be successful? It sounds deceptively simple. And you would think that. Oh, well, you know, of course. Why wouldn't they ask you that? Because they're thinking in transactional terms. They don't think about the philosophy behind our business, the basic root of why we do what we do, and how to articulate that to the marketplace. I had to say it, but I think that's kind of an advanced way of thinking about what we do in this business, believe it or not. Maybe simple, but it's. The philosophical subjects are a little bit more advanced, but they just don't.

Michael Goldman [00:51:59]:
They don't aim for the bottom of the pyramid so that everything they build on top of that base becomes more successful.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:09]:
Absolutely love that. Well, Michael, this has been an awesome conversation. I feel like we're going to definitely chat again in the future. But for those that are listening, if they want to follow you, how do they go about doing that?

Michael Goldman [00:52:20]:
They want to phone me. I don't answer my phone. Well, no.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:26]:
LinkedIn maybe?

Michael Goldman [00:52:28]:
No, they. I mean, what I would suggest the most effective way to contact me is not necessarily by phone. Contact me through LinkedIn or my email address is Michael grategicassociates.com They can email me. They can inmail me through LinkedIn. I'm happy to have some time to talk. I know exactly what they, you know, I can Run a bit of a diagnostic, a short diagnostic, pro bono, and find out where their challenges are and make it a suggestion that'll help them. I'm very big on paying it forward, as you might guess. Awesome.

Michael Goldman [00:53:00]:
I remember the days when I was just this little pitcher, you know, as a recruiter thing, I could do everything. And not realizing that, no, you can't do everything. You don't know everything.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:10]:
I think that's a lot of recruiters. A lot of recruiters realize that down the road, like, oh, I can't do everything. I don't know everything. This world is so much bigger than what it is.

Michael Goldman [00:53:20]:
Yeah. But it can be easier if you understand the bottom level of the pyramid. What will drive you through failures and downturns in the market? Knowing who you are and why you do what you do. Your value proposition, shall we say?

Benjamin Mena [00:53:35]:
Well, I was going to ask you if there's one more thing that you wanted to leave with the listeners, but you just talked about value. So is that it? Or is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners before I let you go?

Michael Goldman [00:53:46]:
It's all about articulating your value, listening to what others want would consider value to them, and marrying the two. Because what motivates you in going out to the marketplace is bring value to the folks that you deal with. It's just a matter of being successful enough with communication to be able to identify what it is. It doesn't matter what the objection is. An objection just means that it's an opportunity to ask another question and provide value. Go take a look at if there's anybody out there who's interested. Watch some of the segments, some of the episodes of an old TV show called Columbo. I mentioned this to you when we talked previously.

Michael Goldman [00:54:26]:
Columbo, he was a detective. This story would start with, you saw a murder, you know who did it. And then you could watch Colombo ask questions during an hour, have the murderer admit that he did it or she did it. He was a terrific question asker, and he used a lot of rejoinders. And I use a lot of rejoinders in how I communicate, and it's very impressive. And I'll leave you with one rejoinder that I think would be very valuable for everybody to use out in the marketplace. I use it all the time. Three words, by the way.

Michael Goldman [00:54:57]:
You can be talking about any subject. We could be talking about recruiting, by the way. Who are you rooting for in the World Series, by the way? It takes this topic of conversation in any direction you want to take it, by the way, I don't know what you're compensated now, but I bet you, you know, you're satisfied with that. But we can talk about that later in the conversation. You can open a door that will give you permission to open the door on the subject later on in the conversation. By the way, this direction, by the way, that direction, by the way, is one of the most successful rejoinders you could possibly use. And you could use it during your podcast, by the way, I just asked you about what do you see a value out there in the marketplace? And by the way, how did you get into this business? There you go.

Benjamin Mena [00:55:39]:
Just hurt down, by the way. Well, Michael, this has been a fun conversation. I know we covered a lot and, you know, I feel like we're definitely gonna have to go for around two down the road. But I just want to say thank you so much for sharing and for the recruiters out there, like, our world is going to evolve. But here's the thing. There are parts of our career, parts of our job that aren't going to change, and we got to figure out how to keep on adding that value in there. But another thing that I think is super important that you talked about is the impact of getting around other recruiters and what it can do for you, whether it's learning something new or bouncing an idea off or something of that nature. So, like, spend this year, right? Go get around some other recruiters.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:21]:
But Michael, I just want to say thank you. And for the recruiters out there, I absolutely believe that 2025 could be your year. Do the work, learn the art of influence, and hit your goals. Catch you guys later. Recruitment agency owners, let's be honest. Clients don't buy from your team. They buy into you. And in a world where AI is automating the bottom end of recruitment, that personal brand is everything.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:47]:
That's why Hoxo built the Personal Brand Bootcamp to help recruitment founders like you turn LinkedIn into a revenue engine. Their Personal Brand Bootcamp is built for founders who don't want to go viral, but who want to build trust, authority, and consistent inbound leads. You'll learn their 3X system, which has helped founders in every niche grow faster with leaner teams. It's a proven system that builds authority and brings clients and candidates to you. You can watch the free masterclass at the link in the show notes, but they limit access, so don't wait. If you like what you see and decide to go ahead with the Hoxo Personal Brand bootcamp, you'll get £500 off. As a listener of the Elite Recruiter podcast, make sure you tell them we sent you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast with Benjamin Mena.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:32]:
If you enjoyed, hit subscribe and leave a rating.