Resilience in Recruiting: How to Overcome Setbacks, Master Mindset, and Build a Lasting Career – Lessons from Jonathan Z. Cohen

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
Coming up on this episode of the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:00:02]:
Elite Recruiter Podcast, I got rejected from like 30 schools between law school and college. I ended up becoming a jd, mba.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:00:11]:
Svu, prosecutor, now associate general counsel and business development leader here at pny. Where you wouldn't expect the trajectory of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:00:19]:
Someone who's diagnosed with learning disabilities, reading.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:00:22]:
Comprehension issues, critical thinking skills, to be able to communicate in a way that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:00:26]:
I can actually articulate my thoughts, feelings.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:00:28]:
And emotions and justify my actions.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:31]:
Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with your host Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:49]:
I know a few of you guys know me. My name is Benjamin Mena. I am co owner of Sucro Solutions with my wife, also host of the Elite Recruiter Podcast. And with that we've got about 224 episodes of just sharing stories in the recruiting space and. And had about 170,000 downloads between Apple and Spotify last year. So just having fun sharing stories and you know, Jonathan actually got me out of my comfort zone. One of the things that I, I keep on doing and keep on saying for every single summit, I actually put a place for myself, forcing myself to share. And then with everything that goes on behind the scenes of running and operating a summit, I always have to give that space up.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:25]:
Cause I feel like I could never just like share with while at the same time trying to like answer emails and make sure people are in the summits and all this other stuff that happens behind the scenes that you guys just never see. So excited to be here. And I'll flip it over to Jonathan for a quick intro from himself.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:39]:
Ben Jimin. Awesome to be here brother.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:42]:
You came on my podcast, one of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:44]:
The first 100 episodes.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:47]:
You are a one of a kind dude and it's awesome to share the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:51]:
Mic with you in a different format, a little bit more seasoned now.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:54]:
My name's Jonathan.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:56]:
It's a pleasure to meet all of you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:01:57]:
I have a background, five years public.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:00]:
Service, two different countries.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:01]:
IDF soldier, criminal prosecutor, svu.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:04]:
I host a podcast of my own, Inside the Inspired. Interviewing high performers on their mindset blueprint. How do they overcome the obstacles that are standing in their way?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:12]:
How do they cultivate the resilience to step in to the vision of who they want to see themselves as? And I've had the pleasure of sitting.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:20]:
Across from some pretty immense individuals ranging from 7,89-figure entrepreneurs to F16 pilots, UFC.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:27]:
Fighters, global best selling authors, or millions of Copies of their books sold, creators of millions of followers and all around incredible individuals who know how to overcome hardship.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:39]:
And I extract these lessons and I share them through workshops, seminars, information sessions, virtual webinars, just geeking out on things.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:48]:
That I love to talk about separately. I'm currently the Associate General Counsel and.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:02:52]:
Lead of the Business development unit at PMY Technologies, an Nvidia partner of over 20 years, 40 years in business. And so I stepped into this role.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:01]:
After my time at the DA's office in order to step into the future AI.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:06]:
We are a incredible company.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:09]:
I just got back from gtc, Nvidia's premier event where they introduce new artificial.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:15]:
Intelligence solutions, namely around hardware and software.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:20]:
And being in this environment on the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:21]:
Forefront and front lines of where AI.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:23]:
And technology is going. I mean Benjamin knows very well how to integrate these tools and I have a background in understanding the hardware of these tools.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:32]:
So it's a very unique blend of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:35]:
Opportunity that I've gone through in all my career. I also have a bit of background as an endurance athlete where I've raised.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:43]:
Tens of thousands of dollars from multiple.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:03:44]:
Organizations ranging from doing things like ultramarathons, ultra strength, endurance and we may or may not talk about it. I don't want to spend too much time on it. But at a high level that's who I am, what I'm about. But above all, father, two beautiful girls, husband to an incredible wife and hyped.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:04:00]:
To be here with all of you. All right, awesome.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:03]:
I know one of the things that we're looking at talking about today is just the resilience factor in recruiting. And you know, most of you guys know if you are recruiters, like recruiting is extremely stressful. It's one of the few positions where you can go do a lot of the work and never get paid if you're a contingency recruiter or if you're a staffing recruiter. It's the turn and burn of somebody coming off a contract and constantly having to refill and refill. Or even the executive like recruiting level where you're focused on like these high level positions with searches that can take six months, nine months even. I've seen some take a year and all that many times while we are waiting to get paid. And we're, we're one of the only industries where our product has a mind of its own while we do a two way sales, selling to the client and selling to the actual candidate. So it's not for the faint of heart.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:52]:
I've seen so many stats where Majority of recruiters, something like 80, 90% don't make it past the first six months. And I get it, but I know every single one of you here today has made it past that initial six to nine months. And you guys are career veterans, have gone through everything. So I'm excited to have Jonathan kind of like share some of the frameworks, the things that he's learned from all these other spaces, places and people to what we can utilize here in the recruiting space.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:15]:
A hundred percent.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:16]:
Let's do this thing, man.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:18]:
All right, so real quick as we get started, resilience, what is your definition of it?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:24]:
What I thought resilience was and what I've come to learn, resilience is are two different things.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:28]:
There's a conventional wisdom of adaptability bouncing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:31]:
Back from failure, but then there's this new age definition that I'm on a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:36]:
Mission to refine and educate and inspire about. I came across this definition initially from a ultra endurance athlete named Ross Edgley.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:46]:
Who'S done crazy things like swim around Great Britain in six months or whatever.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:05:50]:
Setting foot on land six hours on, six hours off, and do a few other wild endurance events in that same spirit. And he defines resilience as suffering strategically managed. And when I first heard that definition.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:05]:
It was pretty eye opening because naturally I was like, what does that even mean? But then as I came to learn through my experience as an attorney, sometimes the definition is wrapped up in the word. And so as I came to understand what it would mean through my own experience, suffering strategically managed, it's about breaking.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:28]:
Things down into manageable steps. So instead of looking at a challenge.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:33]:
As this great big undertaking, you can.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:36]:
Break it down into little steps at.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:39]:
A time, and then those little steps.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:40]:
Compound to eventually get you to that outcome that you're trying to achieve. And so resilience is about managing that suffering accordingly.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:47]:
I was listening to Kobe Bryant this morning in an interview from four years ago. Sometimes I like to do that when I train. I just find that in the background.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:54]:
Like to listen to music anymore.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:06:56]:
But sometimes having something motivational, inspiring, like the late great Kobe, helps me level set. And so he was talking about how it's not about the actual ups and.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:08]:
Downs of the day to day, but the figuring out of things that carries weight. And so if you don't spend too much time being too high, being too low, but instead managing your experience across.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:19]:
The board with a bigger focus on the bigger picture, then it's easier to manage the steps accordingly. So one example I'll give, however, relatable or unrelatable. This is.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:30]:
I recently did a 58 mile ultra marathon in September.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:33]:
And, you know, it sounds like a lot, but I didn't look at it as a lot. I looked at it like, hey, if I could just do 1 mile, I could get to 2. If I could do 2, I can get to 5.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:43]:
If I could do 5, I can get to 10. And then it just became a series of moments.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:47]:
And then when things became really super unbearable, it was about, how do I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:51]:
Break down from mile 40 to 40.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:53]:
And a half to 41, eventually 45, eventually 50.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:07:58]:
Eventually I completed it. But it's about managing the suffering along the way, Managing that conversation in your.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:08:04]:
Head, managing that inner dialogue.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:08:06]:
Not getting too high, not getting too.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:08:08]:
Low, but managing that suffering strategically along the way. So resilience I've come to learn and define as suffering strategically managed.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:18]:
I ran in college, so fully understand the mile after mile, like what it takes many times behind the scenes, like all those miles of training and the workouts that it takes to actually get to that one day of that event, like that ultramarathon or that one race. But like, when you're looking at, like your career, it's easy to talk about that. I feel like when we're talking about running, when you're in your career, it's almost like a whole different, like ball of wax. You know, you can put in the reps, you could do this. But like, how do you transition that resilience over to what you're doing day to day?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:08:49]:
It's a great question. And that is the parallel. It's understanding that from mile to mile, it's difficult to relate to, especially if you don't run. But every conversation that you have is.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:01]:
A step closer towards the ultimate outcome that you're trying to achieve.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:05]:
So when you stop looking at things as unnecessary or as this wall that's getting in your way, something that I like to do is think about how.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:17]:
Inevitably, as long as I'm progressing in that direction, sometimes it's not necessarily a straight line, right? Progress doesn't happen in this linear fashion like we think.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:26]:
Sometimes it's a zig and a zag, sometimes it's a spiral. And that spiral, even if it feels like you're spiraling down, could really be spiraling up. And so what feels like this endless loop is, is really taking you in.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:38]:
A direction that you're ultimately heading towards.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:41]:
And so I also personally believe that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:44]:
Having the intention to improve. In the law, we define intention as.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:47]:
A conscious objective, meaning you knowingly have this outcome that you're trying to achieve. So it's not just, oh, I want to get this outcome, it's how can.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:09:57]:
I improve with every single interaction, every single iteration, that 1% better. So if I reach out to a candidate or if I reach out to an employer, how can I refine my pitch 1%? Instead of just iterate and scale and send out mass template emails, how do I personalize a bit more? Right. There's certain elements where even when we're.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:19]:
Doing things at scale, we can refine the process of, in order to improve.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:24]:
To ultimately achieve the thing that we're trying to do.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:28]:
So the parallel in terms of the resilience is about understanding that each step.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:34]:
Each interaction, each activity, as long as I'm taking something from it, as long.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:39]:
As I'm extracting something like, oh, I didn't like the way I phrased that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:43]:
I can't believe I've sent out a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:45]:
Hundred plus emails with that kind of template. I can't believe I had 100 plus.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:48]:
Conversations without answering this specific question. How do I consistently take information based on what I've been doing and find.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:10:56]:
Ways to iterate it and improve it? And so that resilience ultimately comes down to that compounding, that continuing willingness to improve. And when you have that intention to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:11:08]:
Improve that conscious objective, that compounding eventually.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:11:12]:
Yields you the result that you're after. So it's those micro manageable steps in the nitty gritty details that we'll call.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:11:20]:
The grind, we'll call the grunt work.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:11:22]:
That thankless work that doesn't necessarily feel.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:11:25]:
Like it's yielding any benefits. But ultimately if you have that conscious.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:11:29]:
Objective to improve, that's what yields the results.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:32]:
Well, here's also another thing. Like when you were looking at doing that race, you had the end goal of like the race is going to be on May 26th of x y of this year. So you knew exactly what you're doing, you had a plan that you put in place to plan and you put in the work. But many times when it comes to your career and what you do, from nine to five or nine to seven or six to whatever, do people typically have that same thought out plan too? Do you think that has an impact on somebody's resilience?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:04]:
I think when it comes to that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:06]:
Thankless work, we tend to lose sight.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:09]:
Of what feels like a bigger picture because we're so wrapped up in the routine and sometimes we can become prisoners.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:18]:
Of our routine and it prevents us from being able to bring our best.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:22]:
Selves and our best thinking skills to a situation. And ultimately what I've come to find is that the resilience is something that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:33]:
Has to be practiced on a daily basis. It has to be intentional, it has to be injected and practiced like anything that you do. So ultimately, if you're trying to achieve.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:44]:
Certain things, like get a candidate to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:47]:
A company, make sure that they're a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:49]:
Good fit, how are you refining those.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:12:51]:
Processes along the way? And so if there is no element of improvement and, and it's just a matter of continuing the same process over and over and over again, you're not.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:02]:
Going to get any kind of difference. Right?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:04]:
Nothing changes if nothing changes. And so sometimes that could be auditing a process that doesn't necessarily need to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:10]:
Be audited, but you still do it.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:12]:
Because it's part of who you are. Elon Musk has a sentiment, delete, delete, delete.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:17]:
And then you can always add back later, right?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:20]:
So sometimes there's certain things that work perfectly well and then you take away.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:24]:
Too much, but then you add them.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:25]:
Back in because you realized, well, hey.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:27]:
It was working just fine.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:29]:
But that constant iteration and improvement has to be there because otherwise you're leaving things on the table.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:34]:
And how that translates to resilience is that feedback loop, because you want to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:39]:
Refine that feedback loop to understand what works and what doesn't work. And so if you're going through a process of it feels like the work is stale, it feels like I'm stuck, it feels like I'm not making progress, there's no refinement, there's no assessment of the process. And so if the best of the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:56]:
Best are doing it, and I guess.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:58]:
We'Re qualifying best of the best, best.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:13:59]:
In terms of when we talk about.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:01]:
Elon Musk, for the sake of this.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:02]:
Example, big name, large fortune, not very relatable, have whatever opinions you want. But in terms of achieving objective outcomes, he was able to take certain objectives, like building factories across the country and taking processes that were supposed to take.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:19]:
Years and break them down into days.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:21]:
And so how did he do that?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:22]:
It was a matter of refining the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:24]:
Process, going back to first principles and.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:27]:
Understanding how to automate certain things, delete.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:30]:
Certain things, add them back in, but.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:32]:
It'S that refinement and iteration of the process. And so when you're lost in your.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:36]:
Day to day potentially, or you feel like everything's kind of not going according to the plan like you hope or think that it would, resilience is about that adaptability, it's about the ability to see a situation, understand it may not necessarily go your way, but also audit.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:14:53]:
Your feedback loop to understand how am I getting better here? How can I inject an objective lens onto my thinking and onto my output.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:15:03]:
In a way that allows me to improve? And even though today I may not.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:15:07]:
Necessarily see the outcome, I'm trying to maybe tomorrow, maybe in a week, maybe in three months. But having a longer term time horizon.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:15:15]:
Is also a big part of it.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:18]:
So, you know, I want to go to the Kobe Bryant example where he's sitting there on the court working, practicing all the time, but you know, outside of his opponents, the court is a pretty controlled atmosphere, a controlled area. You know, when it comes to a career in recruiting, like there are ups and downs with the economy. Like, perfect example. I remember when I first started in recruiting back in 2006, I got dropped into the construction industry, which was going gangbuster in Florida. Then all of a sudden it almost felt like overnight the entire industry got demolished. Like everybody, all my contractors got laid off. I was getting yelled at by my managers about my numbers just going down. And it was completely.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:58]:
And I was still putting in the work, I was still putting in the numbers every single day. But there's like economic factors and so many factors outside of our control. When is it time to, I don't want to say hang up the recruiting chair, but when's it time to sit down and figure out if I need to go another direction because of those outside factors and because I'm getting hit so much even though I've been putting in the work day in, day out and not seeing the results?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:21]:
You know, I pose a similar question.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:22]:
To Sahil Bloom, who, if you don't know Sahil Bloom, he's one of the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:26]:
Biggest creators on the Internet and he's.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:28]:
Got a background in private equity. He's mentored by the likes of Tim.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:32]:
Cook and so forth.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:35]:
You can imagine a network that starts with Tim Cook writing a testimonial to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:39]:
Your five time New York Times best selling book. And this question is, I'll give you his kind of feedback in my own. Because it's the same thing in any endeavor, right? How do you know when it's time?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:55]:
If you're not getting any market validation.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:58]:
How do you know that it's time.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:16:59]:
To go in a different direction? And he used the metaphor of if you're tapping on the wall at the same point and the goal is to break the wall down, well, maybe you've been doing it too long and you need to find another point on the wall to tap. So you could try a different strategy.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:16]:
And break the wal and then continually.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:18]:
Figure out a different place to tap until you find that breaking point in the wall till it inevitably breaks down.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:24]:
And you break through.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:25]:
Based on the control aspect that you're talking about, it's important to focus on.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:29]:
What you can control.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:31]:
You can't control the economy. And so if you spend so much time ruminating on things outside your control.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:37]:
Instead of focusing on what's within your control, your effort, your attitude, your output.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:42]:
Those things on a short term time horizon or in one economic cycle aren't.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:46]:
Necessarily going to pay the type of dividends I to work at this company.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:50]:
For 4 years before I was closing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:17:51]:
78 figure million dollar deals, you know, and that is a testament to showing up for years before I'm able to get that kind of output where all.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:03]:
Of a sudden it looks like overnight success. But I can't tell you how many hundreds of thousands of emails I sent or calls that I made or conversations I had that felt like they were.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:12]:
Going somewhere only to end up in a different direction.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:15]:
Managing your own expectations along the way so you spend less time in the rumination phase and more time in the action phase is what it comes down to. So when you're going through a difficult economic turn and the factors are outside.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:28]:
Of your control, there's a finite amount.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:30]:
Of things that we can control and showing up in those areas of our life and understanding that we're multi dimensional beings that can't just completely identify by the occupational dimension of our being and that there's other elements to who we are from spiritual, mental, physical, emotional, harnessing those other aspects. Once you focus on those other areas.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:51]:
Of your life, you can then parlay that to when there is a positive economic turn into another area.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:18:59]:
And so I'll give one more example. From the running 40 miles into a 58 mile run. My knees felt like they were about to fall apart. My daughter's hanging out in the park, doesn't know what's going on. My mom's telling me that I can stop. My dad's telling me I can stop. My wife is looking at me with.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:15]:
Pity and I'm saying to myself, the demons are creeping in, like why no.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:20]:
One even cares if you finish this.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:21]:
No one's going to know if you don't.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:23]:
It doesn't matter.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:24]:
You raised enough money.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:26]:
Ultimately it comes down to me doing the thing that I said that I was going to do and understanding one.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:31]:
Step at a time and Things are.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:33]:
Intended to be up and down. So if you take a much longer.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:37]:
Term perspective of, all right, I'm not.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:40]:
Going to necessarily play for 2025, but.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:42]:
I'm going to make decisions that pay.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:44]:
Dividends in 2028, then you're starting to think on the grander scheme of things.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:49]:
And sitting down with eight, nine figure entrepreneurs. I mean, I'm sure you have too, Benjamin. Like there's a different game that these guys play.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:19:58]:
Simon Sinek talks about it too. The infinite game.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:01]:
And knowing what game you are playing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:03]:
Makes a massive difference. If you're playing for the micro, then.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:06]:
You may win in the micro, but.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:09]:
Ultimately you won't be prepared for when darker days lie ahead. And so if there's darker days in front of you and you're going to completely invest in what's right now here.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:17]:
Then you're going to miss out on the opportunities in the future, right?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:20]:
So ultimately it comes down to focusing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:23]:
On what you can control, effort, attitude, doubling down on things like human interaction and developing those relationships.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:31]:
There's always a different game that you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:33]:
Can play, but knowing what game you're.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:35]:
Optimizing for makes a massive difference.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:38]:
How do you go, like you're hearing this, like you're thinking like, okay, what game am I playing? How do you actually start looking at figuring out how to play a bigger game?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:47]:
I mean, ultimately it comes down to a vision. It comes down to what you see for yourself across multiple dimensions of your life. Well, well being is something that I talk a healthy amount about when I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:20:58]:
Lecture judges, attorneys or students. And they come to these seminars. And the seminar is called the Art of Overcoming Setbacks.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:06]:
And most of us tie our identity.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:09]:
Up in our occupational and we leave.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:11]:
Out those other elements.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:12]:
But the truth is, once you have.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:15]:
Certain routines, regimens, habits that allow you to open up conversations and focus on things like, let's say, the relationship or social element of our lives, it allows us to maybe have relationships that benefit.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:26]:
Us five years down the road, giving.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:29]:
Without expectation, doing things because it's the right thing to do. So it starts with having a vision of your life. How do you want to hold yourself out in the world?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:38]:
What type of values does that person uphold?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:41]:
What type of behaviors does that person.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:43]:
Engage in and understanding that vision, a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:47]:
Dream life, if you will. There's a concept of chasing perfect days where if you write out your perfect.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:52]:
Day and then you circle how many.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:54]:
Of those things you can do on a daily basis, you realize like, hey.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:21:57]:
I've been kind of missing out on this opportunity.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:00]:
To have that perfect cup of coffee.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:02]:
A walk with my spouse, a quick 20 minute workout time with my kids, or just watch my favorite movie or.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:09]:
TV show and do that on a daily basis. But also understanding the seasonal element of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:14]:
Things that ultimately balance in this whole idea of thinking that we're going to achieve it in the micro is a lie. And if we have more of a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:24]:
Macro approach to balance, that helps us clarify our vision. So instead of trying to have this.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:30]:
Perfectly balanced day that optimizes our personal.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:33]:
Professional and spiritual elements of our lives and everything else that I was talking.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:37]:
About, it comes down to understanding, like.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:39]:
All right, maybe Monday is the day that I do X, Tuesday is the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:42]:
Day that I do Y, Thursday is.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:44]:
The day that I do Z, et cetera.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:45]:
I think you guys get the point. But ultimately it starts with a vision.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:50]:
The values that you want to uphold, how you want to hold yourself out in the world, and the standards that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:55]:
You want to hold yourself to within.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:22:57]:
Those other two buckets. And then from there, that's how you build. You have to know what you're aiming towards in order to know what game.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:23:03]:
You'Re going to play. I mean, let's take you, for example. You built this incredible podcast, right?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:23:10]:
Community focused on recruitment. You got awesome people here hanging out, joining us today at the lunch hour. What are you optimizing for? What game are you playing? You become a thought leader in the industry, right? And look how many hundreds of thousands of downloads and conversations that you've had as a result. You knew what game you were playing. Did I? It's kind of. You knew what you wanted to talk about, right?

Benjamin Mena [00:23:31]:
You know, it's a dumb idea that I just kind of kept on running with. It's one of the things I think, like, for A good, like 200 episodes, I, maybe even longer, I did not know what I actually wanted to do with this podcast, but it's one of those things. I also knew that if I keep on going along this path, I'll get there eventually. And it's also one of the most incredible things that I've gotten where I've actually had the chance to have, like so many incredible relationships because of just a podcast. Like, perfect example of this. Something like 28,000 recruiters in the D.C. metro. Most people probably know about 25 of them.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:00]:
And I'm many times one of those 25 because of the podcast and because of the work that goes in behind the scenes, those hours of editing, the hours of building and the hours of interviewing, chatting behind the scenes, you know, has come up that. And it turned into this year with events. And I think we've had like 6,000 people show up to virtual recruiting events too. So it's just kind of like wild. You mentioned, like, you know, vision, like, game plan. I don't know if I actually knew where the vision was going to go with the game plan. I just knew that there was a path in front of me that if I just put every single step forward, I knew I get to a place eventually where I could find out, where I'm still discovering where to find out. But at the same time, you know, as a podcaster, like, it's a lot of like quiet days for in quiet hours to get all that put together.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:24:49]:
I think, to that point. Right.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:24:51]:
Like, because the initial question was what game? And then the subsequent question was about the vision. And then the example was not necessarily.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:24:59]:
Having a vision, but being able to move forward anyway.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:03]:
And I think that directional certainty can.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:07]:
Get you towards the vision.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:09]:
It's understanding that you don't have to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:11]:
Have all the details lined out, but.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:13]:
The question is, how do you know.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:15]:
What game you're playing?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:15]:
Well, you have to define what vision you're actually after.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:19]:
And the way that you can define that vision is by understanding the kind.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:22]:
Of avatar that you want to be or the kind of character that you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:25]:
Want to be in this world.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:26]:
Right.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:26]:
Do you want to be someone who wakes up at a certain hour?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:28]:
Do you want to be someone who.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:29]:
Has a certain type of relationship capital?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:30]:
Do you want to be someone who has a certain ability to generate a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:34]:
Certain amount of wealth? Like, it just depends on what you're optimizing for.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:38]:
And so the example that I give with you is, well, this podcast took.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:42]:
A leap once you optimized for adding value to the recruitment space, and you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:46]:
Were able to hone in and add immense amount of value very, very quickly. Because you realize this awesome theme across 100 plus episodes that you had either.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:55]:
Intentionally or unintentionally or by happenstance, generated.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:25:59]:
A ton of value in this particular.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:00]:
Space, which allowed all of that compounding interest without absolute certainty on your vision, where it was going to go.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:08]:
Yet all of a sudden you got thousands of people that look to you as a thought leader, whether you like to admit it or not, humbly so. And you become who you become.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:17]:
Right?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:17]:
I mean, I think that when it came to, like, for example, my podcast, people look to say, you know, I. I don't understand, like, you, you interview.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:27]:
This doctor, a toddler development, you interview this author, you interview this Prosecutor, interview that judge.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:34]:
You interview this pilot. Like what?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:36]:
Like what's the theme here?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:38]:
I don't get it. There's no real overlap.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:41]:
It doesn't make sense. And I wanted it to make sense.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:44]:
I just knew I liked having conversations with people that impressed me, that I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:26:49]:
Felt had lessons to share, that I felt had been through difficult times and I wanted to learn how they think through success. And ultimately, I didn't necessarily know if it was inspiration, motivation, resilience, but I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:02]:
Had directional certainty and I had a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:04]:
Vision of sitting down across from people that inspire me to make me want to be better. And from there, it's taken on a life of its own. But in order to define that vision and it can iterate over time, you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:15]:
Got to answer those questions right, at.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:17]:
Least at a high level, in my.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:19]:
Opinion, to help clarify the direction that you're heading.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:22]:
Because if you don't know where you're heading, you won't know what game you're playing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:26]:
And you'll just be playing a game of hope. And that can be enough to get you to the next step, but it won't be enough to get you to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:27:34]:
Where you're trying to go.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:36]:
The Elite recruiter podcast has multiple summits coming up that you need to make sure that you are registered for. We have the AI recruiting summit 2025 coming up and on top of that, finish the year strong. These two summits are going to help you move the needle, help you achieve your goals, help you achieve your dreams, and make 20, 2025 of the year that you started out and you want it to be. Make sure you get registered and also stay tuned. Got something cooking for you guys. Working on another project that you guys are going to absolutely love. All right, see you guys at the summits and see you guys soon. I want to kind of switch gears a little bit.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:28:09]:
Yeah, you've.

Benjamin Mena [00:28:10]:
You talked about identity and you like. One of the things in recruiting is like, I think a lot of recruiters don't understand the value that they bring to the table. What we do on a, literally a daily basis and we don't realize it or we lose sight of it is we change lives on a daily basis. Yeah, we build companies on a daily basis. Like, if it wasn't for, you know, a recruiter putting a team together, Nvidia wouldn't be around.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:28:34]:
The best.

Benjamin Mena [00:28:34]:
The best and the smartest people wouldn't be. This entire, like multi billion dollar company wouldn't be around if it wasn't for a bunch of great recruiters putting A team together. So, you know, one of the things in the govcon space, I can quantify that a little bit. Like we actually put together over a billion dollars worth of government contracts, you know, but other places like healthcare, like you don't. It's harder to quantify placing a doctor somewhere because you're not seeing the lives that they're saving on a daily basis. Like when you are in a sales position, how do you go back and like realize and start understanding the value that you bring to the table that start helping build that identity?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:13]:
There's a couple ways, I would say off the top of my experience, understanding your value comes to understand how you value yourself.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:22]:
And ultimately, if you don't know your value, you have to auto what you're doing, how are you spending your time.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:28]:
What are the dollar value or social values of those tasks and how are they showing up in the world?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:38]:
And it's almost an element of imposter syndrome that you're talking about in a lot of ways that if people can't articulate the value they're bringing to a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:45]:
Dynamic, then it's going to hinder their.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:50]:
Ability to actually add any value at all.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:29:53]:
So what I would offer, and I offer this in my seminars as well, the evidence frame you want to be able to articulate in the law, I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:02]:
Mean, I'm sure you've all heard at.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:03]:
This point in a criminal case, I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:05]:
Was an SVU prosecutor. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the burden of proof. It's on the prosecution to prove the defendant committed a crime at a certain.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:12]:
Place on a certain date to a certain person or harm injured party in some way. How that applies here is when you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:22]:
Look at all of the things that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:24]:
You'Ve done throughout your career, or if.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:26]:
You look at all the things that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:27]:
Your entity does when it comes to tasks, when it comes to value creation, when it comes to output, you're establishing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:35]:
Evidence and then the burden of proof.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:37]:
Is on you to the point that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:39]:
You establish enough evidence that not even you can question.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:43]:
I got rejected from like 30 schools between law school and college.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:48]:
I ended up becoming a jd, mba, SBU prosecutor, now associate general counsel and business development leader here at pny, where.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:30:58]:
You wouldn't expect the trajectory of someone who's diagnosed with learning disabilities, reading comprehension.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:03]:
Issues, critical thinking skills, to be able to communicate in a way that I.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:06]:
Can actually articulate my thoughts, feelings and.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:08]:
Emotions and justify my action. But it comes from being able to understand the evidence that you're putting out into the world so you can show up 110% without any doubt. Because if you can't convince yourself, how's anybody else going to believe you? The whole fake it till you make.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:25]:
It thing, yeah, I get it, but. And I don't want to undermine anyone who actually feels that particular way about.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:32]:
Something, but I would offer this frame of, are you making a difference? Are you doing something that's tangibly impacting someone in the world in a positive way?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:42]:
And if you are, what is that?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:44]:
If you haven't done it yet, go.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:46]:
Out and do it so you could know what it looks like when it's.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:48]:
Actually in front of you. And then offer that example to whoever you're trying to help to say, hey, this is proof that I can do the thing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:55]:
This is proof that I can do the thing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:31:59]:
I've done it here, I've done it there, and I'll do it here again.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:03]:
The key is to maintain your values of, I imagine everyone here.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:07]:
Don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal. Have integrity, right? And so if you operate with integrity. I interviewed Ryan Leek, motivational speaker, inspires.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:15]:
Millions of people around the world, and he talks about how people hold on.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:19]:
To bravery and then they let it go.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:22]:
And part of that is when he was asked to speak, I believe it was to Delta Airlines, and they asked him to speak to a few thousand people.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:31]:
They asked him, have he ever done an event of that size before? And he could have lied, but instead he told the truth and said no.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:37]:
And they were like, I'm surprised you didn't lie. He's like, well, why would you want to start a relationship off on a negative note?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:43]:
And ultimately it carried more weight.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:45]:
He got the opportunity, and from there his career has completely taken off. So it comes down to articulating your.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:32:53]:
Values for yourself so you could know what you stand for and the value that you create in the world. So this way you can go and share that value with other people and positively impact them in your own unique way.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:05]:
So I want to talk about stress management, but we're going to do that in a second. I want to kind of dig a little deeper based on the evidence, without a doubt, you've built out this list of values that you've added work that you've done, this highlight reel of what you've accomplished. But one of the. I was listening to an audiobook from Kendra hall called Stories that Stick, and one of the things that she talks about is the internal dialogues and the stories that you have on a daily basis, because I think we only listen to like 10% of like, you know, what happens out there, but rest of the 90% of the dialogue that we deal with on a daily basis is just us. And so many of us, there's like one or two stories that we just hang on to that has a huge impact on the entire career that we have. I remember one of the first times when I first got an offer offer for a recruiting position, somebody in my family actually said, don't take it. It's a sales job. We're menace.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:59]:
We suck at sales. And it wasn't until about 17 years later I realized how that little bit of story, that little bit of like that quick 15 seconds from a family member probably has taken away millions of dollars in revenue from me because I just like, I'm not the salesperson. I'm not the sales guy. I'll do the recruiting. But when it comes to recruiting, to make the money, you have to specialize and become great in client acquisition, client development, client empowerment, and, you know, the influence on candidates and clients, which is sales. But that little bit of that little line I played myself over and over and over for years. How do you rewrite those internal dialogues on top of everything that you've already talked about?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:34:47]:
Great question, man. The quality of your life is going to be determined by the stories that you tell yourself. And you could tell yourself that you're a person who can't and you won't.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:34:57]:
You could tell yourself that you're a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:34:58]:
Person who can and you will.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:00]:
What you're talking about right there and the example that you gave is you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:05]:
Being the generational inflection point for your family.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:09]:
And I know this because I experienced it too. I've become this endurance athlete in a family full of people who have different types of health issues, who have a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:21]:
Long family history of, you name it, there's some element of it in my family.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:27]:
And I was told for the longest time whether I couldn't jump over a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:31]:
Rope or got cut from every team.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:32]:
That I tried out for. And even when I did make a team, I rode the bench the entire time that now I've become this endurance athlete. But I used to tell myself that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:35:42]:
I couldn't play sports. I'm not good enough. And the same thing with school. You got all these institutions telling me that I am not qualified learning specialist. I remember my college counselor told me in front of my parents, your parents are going to have to buy a building if you want to get in to Muhlenberg College.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:02]:
She laughed.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:03]:
I still hear her laugh. Audibly in my head, not every day, but every so often. And that's not necessarily what motivates me.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:10]:
I've gotten over that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:12]:
But I just decided to tell myself a different story. I decided to pick up books and start reading to the point I didn't have any more reading comprehension issues. I wanted to pass the bar without any tutors or help. Not because there's anything wrong with that, but because I was telling myself a story that I needed a tutor in.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:30]:
Order to do well on an exam.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:32]:
And then one day in law school, I remember teaching my tutor things that I was learning.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:36]:
And I remember when I was studying.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:39]:
For the bar, they walked in because they didn't pass.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:42]:
And that just created this new frame.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:45]:
For me to consider. It's not a knock on them and.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:47]:
It'S not a testament to me.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:48]:
It's a testament to you're going to be and live a life based on the quality of the story that you tell yourself.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:55]:
And if you decide to tell yourself.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:36:57]:
A story that you're somebody who's not able or capable or this is what it's been and therefore it can't, there's probabilities in life, there's patterns. And it's on you to pattern interrupt. Having extreme ownership of your decisions, good, bad and indifferent. Recognizing the conditioning of your life and deciding to take a different turn, that's your responsibility and it can't be put into someone else's hand. Power follows blame. If you point the finger at someone else, you're going to give them the power. If you point the finger at yourself.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:29]:
And you decide that this is on you, right?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:32]:
Poor economic turn.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:34]:
How am I going to optimize?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:35]:
Well, maybe you can't optimize for revenue, but you could optimize for relationship capital. You could optimize for changing the processes in your business. You can optimize for other areas that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:45]:
You'Re not performing as well on historically. So you could figure out where your.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:48]:
Weaknesses are so you could turn them into strengths. And constantly auditing your feedback loop to say how can I iterate improve? And probably in your case, Benjamin automate.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:37:58]:
But in my experience, based on being someone who couldn't make a team, run.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:05]:
A mile, lift a weight, get into.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:08]:
College, get into law school, even one.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:11]:
DA's office called me back.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:13]:
But then I became one of the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:14]:
Best SVU prosecutors in my division because I stayed and I did the work. I told myself a different story.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:21]:
I always told myself, all I need is a shot, all I need is a chance.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:25]:
And I'm not the only one.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:27]:
There's so many stories like me that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:30]:
Accomplish even greater feats than me.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:33]:
I'm just one example. And that's kind of the point.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:37]:
That if someone like me, who couldn't.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:39]:
Get into school, who couldn't jump over.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:41]:
A rope, who couldn't make a team, who had shoulder surgery and was told he wouldn't be able to do a single pull up, a couple years ago, I raised $20,000 for doing a thousand. One kid got up out of his.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:52]:
Wheelchair during that feat and I lifted him up to do a pull up.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:56]:
Because he thought that he could.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:38:57]:
If a kid in a wheelchair didn't think that a pull up bar was.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:01]:
Going to hold him back, showing everyone.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:03]:
That he could do a pull up.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:05]:
Why would that stop anybody else from doing anything that they want?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:09]:
Having that blind naivete, being bold enough.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:13]:
To say, I'm gonna tell myself a different story. That's what it's about.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:17]:
That's how you pattern interrupt. That's how you change the trajectory of your life.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:24]:
Love that. And I want to talk about stress management. You know, doing anything where you're grinding it out, it gets hard, it gets stressful. And I know there's a lot of avenues. What's the proper framework for relieving the stress and not not jumping into vices?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:39:41]:
There's a great episode on my podcast that I recorded with Dr. Michael Gervais, sports psychologist, coaches, Olympians, UFC fighters, Super bowl champions, one of the smartest guys I've ever had the opportunity to sit across. And he talks about this stress management ecosystem and there's different pillars to it. I'll leave that as the hook.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:40:05]:
So you could go check out the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:40:06]:
Episode because it's well worth it, because it's all about how to stay calm.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:40:10]:
How to manage your thoughts, feelings, emotions, actions and behaviors. But ultimately recognizing that the name of it, stress management, it's not stress elimination.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:40:19]:
It's understanding that managing stress, suffering, strategically managed, having that resilience is about leveraging that ecosystem. Simple things that tend to be a.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:40:32]:
Bit glorified, like journaling or gratitude, things like that really do make a difference. But that conversation that you have with yourself, that voice, something that really helped me understand myself was that voice, those demons, those gremlins, was recognizing when I'm self sabotaging through procrastination, through perfectionism, that those are all different forms of self sabotage, but also recognizing that that inner critic is trying to keep me safe.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:02]:
Jonathan, don't run a second mile because it's too cold outside. Jonathan, don't apply for that opportunity because.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:09]:
It'S better if you don't. It's just. It's just safer for you if you don't.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:14]:
Jonathan, you're not meant to go to law school.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:18]:
It's okay. You shouldn't stand up in front of people and talk about the things that have happened to you because no one cares. And you'll just be safer if you stay at home and watch your favorite TV shows. Jonathan, if you just play it safe, it'll be okay. I don't want things to be okay. I don't need things to be okay. And so a big part of stress management is recognizing that ambition scales. So as you want to accomplish more, your problems are going to grow proportionally.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:47]:
And so how you go about cultivating.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:49]:
That resilience is recognizing that when those.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:52]:
Problems happen, well, you want to be great.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:54]:
What'd you think was going to happen?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:41:55]:
You asked for this, you literally wanted this. You want to be someone who would accomplish great things? What do you think happens to people who do great things?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:04]:
They get hate, they fail, they bounce.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:06]:
Back, they recover, they iterate and they improve. And then they fail again. And then they go through the whole process again.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:13]:
And that's just part of it. Expecting things to go smoothly is you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:18]:
Getting in your own way, but recognizing that obstacles are inevitable, problems are inevitable. You don't wish for a life of no problems. You wish for a life of good problems. Managing that stress, not eliminating that stress.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:32]:
Is going to be a better frame.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:35]:
To synthesize and process the experience that you have here while you're here.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:40]:
So how can you create those positive.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:42]:
Ripples in a way that's going to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:44]:
Make a positive impact on people just.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:47]:
By virtue of your existence, doing things without expectation.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:51]:
And a big part of all of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:53]:
This comes down to presence. Doing the thing when it's in front.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:42:57]:
Of you, not thinking about what was.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:00]:
Or what could be.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:01]:
I worked with victims of domestic violence.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:04]:
For three years in Bronx county, and trauma comes up quite a lot.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:08]:
And I read a phenomenal book called the Body Keeps A score by Dr.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:12]:
Bessel van der Kolk.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:13]:
And it's like a textbook. It took me like over a month to read, and I still go back to it regularly. And he defines trauma about people ruminating.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:22]:
On what was or what could be.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:24]:
And therefore a lack of focus on what is, meaning you're not present.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:28]:
And so if you can cultivate presence in your life by eliminating distractions, no headphones. And this is not meant to sound self righteous, but something That I like.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:36]:
To do is not look at my phone for the first 30 minutes of the day.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:41]:
That's cultivating presence. I let my brain warm up naturally.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:44]:
Coming into the world. And it has been one of the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:46]:
Biggest game changers in cultivating willpower, in.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:49]:
Cultivating discipline, in cultivating routine, in cultivating a higher opinion of myself and not.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:43:56]:
Letting me react to the world, but me taking the world more by the horns. So stress management comes down to making difficult decisions that allows you to step into the world instead of step aside.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:07]:
While everyone else tries to run ahead.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:10]:
You know, one of the things I think kind of stood out that you've mentioned maybe three times is doing what you say you are going to do. And I've seen the impact of that on myself. You say you do something, you go do it and it just like compounds. But if you say that you're going to do it and don't do starts like uncompounding. Can you talk about that real quick?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:38]:
Yeah, yeah, of course.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:39]:
I love this topic.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:41]:
I see why everyone comes to your podcast.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:43]:
Man I was speaking to, he's now.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:46]:
A coach for me.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:47]:
But I spoke to a couple ultra.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:49]:
Runners and again, I'm sorry if this.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:51]:
Isn'T relatable, but the concepts and the framework still carry weight.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:55]:
Doing what you say you're going to do is such a badass quality.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:44:59]:
It's just a cool thing to do.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:01]:
If you say you're gonna do something.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:02]:
And you do it, it's proof it's.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:05]:
A little win and simple things.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:07]:
Like I said, I'm gonna pick up my kids on time in school.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:10]:
I'm gonna go make sure I'm there on time. I said that I'm going to commit.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:15]:
To do this podcast with Benjamin.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:17]:
Well, I got this thing popping up.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:19]:
At work and I need to reschedule.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:21]:
No, I gave my word. I'm gonna do the thing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:25]:
It's a matter of following through with.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:27]:
The things that you say that you're going to do.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:30]:
That's what builds confidence, that's what builds commitment, that builds reputation, that builds character, and that allows you to acquire experience.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:38]:
And through experience, you can impact more people. You can have a positive impact on yourself. It's a matter of taking yourself seriously. And so simple things and you learn over time where you over commit, you under commit and you kind of have to have that honest conversation with yourself about that. And it's a bit of a separate conversation. But doing what you say you're going.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:45:58]:
To do is such a badass quality.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:02]:
And that is like the coolest thing I've ever heard.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:06]:
It's just one of these things that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:07]:
If you focus on keeping your word to yourself, everything gets better. And so if you say you're not going to drink, or if you say.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:16]:
You'Re not going to indulge in whatever.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:18]:
The immediate gratification is and you learn how to delay the gratification, you learn how to build a higher opinion of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:26]:
Yourself and then the confidence comes through.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:28]:
The repetition, right to your point, the compounding of it. And so that resilience is a matter of, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:34]:
I've done this, I've been through this.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:37]:
I know I can handle this because I said I was going to do it and I didn't. I put myself in enough positions over time, over enough period of years for that to compound for me to have.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:44]:
This opinion of myself so I could do this thing. Because going back to the evidence frame.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:47]:
It'S unreasonable for me not to believe.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:49]:
That I, I'm the person that I say I am. So I'm going to follow through on the thing that I said I'm going to do because that's just the type.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:46:55]:
Of person I am. That's the type of person I become. If you don't know where to start, keep the promises that you make to yourself.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:47:02]:
It's going to help you be more present, it's going to help you be less stressed, it's going to help you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:47:06]:
Manage your stress, it's going to help.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:47:07]:
You manage your suffering.

Benjamin Mena [00:47:10]:
So I feel like we could probably go on for another hour, but I know we've talked a lot about resilience. We've talked about the ins and outs, we've talked about the struggle. I know maybe like one or two people that was on here earlier, like in the audience might know this, but like my first year with my own business, I don't think I made a single dime. It was just in and out and grind. Like I get done with my day at about 3 o' clock, 4 o' clock, I'd go home, change, then I'd go to WeWork and work till about 10pm every single night, just working on trying to get a client, working on split deals with never making a dime, nothing ever going through. And you know, it's one of those things you don't think about other than like, this sucks. Will this ever work until years later? So I love how you've like talked about what you need to do to build the resilience, what you need to do to keep it. But before I let you go, is there anything else that you want to cover within the world of resilience when it comes to recruiting?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:04]:
I think when it comes to recruiting.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:06]:
And, you know, we also touched on imposter syndrome.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:09]:
Always focus on the value that you're bringing.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:12]:
Don't lose sight of that.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:13]:
It's so important to remind yourself of.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:17]:
That in your unique mechanism because it's.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:21]:
Going to make a massive difference.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:23]:
Even if everybody is about matchmaking in the recruiting space, how do you match, make?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:30]:
How do you create that competitive edge.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:33]:
Relative to everybody else? Is it that ability to keep the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:37]:
Promises you make to yourself? Is it your ability to show up on time? The little things give you a seat, and what got you here won't keep you here. But resilience, particularly with recruiting and the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:47]:
Experience that I've had sitting with dude, believe me, I work for an individual who has a very, very, very high level of scrutiny when it comes to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:48:59]:
Listening to what people have to say and is notorious for ending interviews early.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:06]:
And a standard that he has is.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:09]:
Simply don't pretend to know the things that you do not know the answer to. It is something so simple, but saying I don't know, or a graceful way to say, I don't know, but I can find out. Part of resilience is being able to have hard conversations and reframing hard conversations as growth, conversations as opportunities for growth. And when it comes to recruiters in specific, making over broad promises that you may not be able to keep aren't going to be a positive reflection of anything. But you also don't want to lower.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:44]:
The standard to the point where you're not attractive. But what I would say is it's.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:49]:
Not a marketing conversation. It's simply don't pretend to know things that you don't know the answer to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:54]:
But make sure you don't lose sight.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:56]:
Of the value that you bring to the table.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:49:59]:
And hopefully that can give you some.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:02]:
Clarity going into the rest of the year. Because I'm excited for all of you.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:05]:
I'm excited to see how resilience plays.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:07]:
A role and learn from all of you how resilience plays a role in your careers. And if there's anything else that you'd like to learn about, I'd love to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:14]:
Hear some of the challenges that you're facing. So this way we could optimize the last few minutes for you. And you know, Benjamin, you're the man. Great questions and you know how to host the conversation. Easy to see why people keep coming.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:28]:
Back to this podcast.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:29]:
And yeah, man, I appreciate you.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:31]:
Well, Jonathan, how do people follow you if they want to follow you?

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:35]:
Well, I have a YouTube channel, inside the Inspired with Jonathan Z. Cohen.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:39]:
You could also follow me on LinkedIn.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:41]:
Or Instagram @ Jonathan Z. Cohen, Inside.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:43]:
The Inspire is the name of the podcast again. It's about helping people overcome the obstacles.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:48]:
That are standing in their way.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:49]:
170 + episodes with some pretty cool.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:52]:
People that I never thought I'd get.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:50:54]:
The chance to sit across from or learn from. And Benjamin's been one of them. So if that says anything about the.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:51:02]:
Quality and standard that I hold the podcast to.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:51:04]:
So that's how you can keep up.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:06]:
Well, definitely want to say thank you so much for joining today for everybody that joined live. Thank you guys for joining. I think this is actually the first live session that I've ever done.

Jonathan Z. Cohen [00:51:14]:
Wow.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:14]:
Do everything behind the scenes where it's edited and people see it typically like two to three months later. So once again, thank you for joining and for everybody out there, I just want you to absolutely crush 2020. Take some of the frameworks that you've learned from this episode, this conversation. How can you get those implemented in your life so you can go crush the air? Make it happen.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:34]:
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed, hit subscribe and leave a rating.