Turn Your Recruiting Niche Into a $6M Practice + Venture Fund | Norm Volsky

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
Are you still trying to grow your recruiting desk or business on your own? Join the Elite Recruiter Community and connect with recruiters who know your challenges. Members get unlimited access to replays from the AI Recruiting Summit, Finish the year strong and all our past events plus biweekly roundtables where we dive into sourcing, business development and mindset. You'll also tap into our Billers Club for accountability and a split space to partner on roles. Join the number one growth environment for recruiters. For just $49 per month, you'll be part of a tight knit group that pushes you to grow and you can cancel anytime. Visit the link in the show notes and click Join now to get started and start mastering your craft today. Coming up on this episode of the

Norman Volsky [00:00:38]:
Elite Recruiter Podcast, everyone in recruiting's told, well, yeah, you gotta be different. What does that mean? The first thing you can do to differentiate yourself is to be positive, to be high energy, to be optimistic. Because no one needs another negative pessimist in their life. Ask yourself daily, how can I be better tomorrow than I am today? Keep trying to tweak things, but most importantly, learn from the people you're talking to. You can't learn a niche faster than learning from people in your niche that have been doing it longer. Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with your host Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:30]:
You know the resume never tells the full story. Candidates share what really matters during conversations, on calls and interviews, over email, their motivations, salary expectations, plans to relocate. Most of that detail ends up buried in notes and forgotten. Atlas changes that. It's the AI first recruitment platform. Built to eliminate admin. It captures every conversation automatically and turns it into something you can use with MagicSearch. You can ask Atlas questions like who talked about wanting a four day week? Or who mentioned they're open to relocating next year? It searches across your entire database and pulls the answers instantly.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:04]:
No keyword guessing and no digging through old notes. You get insight from real conversations, not limited resume fields. Atlas also makes BD easier with opportunities you can track and grow client relationships powered by generative AI and built into your existing workflow. If you want visibility, smart dashboards give you a clear view of the pipeline across your business. And that's not theory. Atlas customers have reported over 40% EBITDA growth and over 80% increase in monthly billings after adopting the platform. It's built for agencies that want to grow without adding more manual work. Don't miss the future of recruitment.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:39]:
Get started with Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer@reruitwithatlas.com you guys are going to be ready for this episode. I've actually been looking forward to recording this for actually almost a year now. I had the chance to listen to this guest in person and my mind was absolutely blown. I've been in this business for almost two decades now, and this guest does things completely different than pretty much every recruiter out there. And he's willing to share. He's willing to be an open book. He's willing to share some of the things that you can do to learn how to think bigger, to take yourself to where you are and absolutely dominate a niche, dominate a market. So that's why I'm excited to have him here as a guest.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:23]:
So, Norm, welcome to the podcast.

Norman Volsky [00:03:25]:
Oh, man, I don't know if I can live up to all of that, but really appreciate it. Ben, it's been great getting to know you over the last couple of years and really excited to be here. I definitely have listened to your episodes of, you know, many friends who have been on, and you just produce some great content. So thank you.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:41]:
Well, thank you. So, real quick, quick 30 seconds. Self introduction. I feel like I can't cover everything as well as you.

Norman Volsky [00:03:48]:
All right, well, you know, I've been recruiting about 14, 15 years now. Started at a firm out of Cleveland called Direct Recruiters. Actually started here as an intern in college before doing this full time and started on the hospital software team and about 11 years ago, 10 years ago, built my own practice and employee health benefits and have been, you know, managing partner at DRI for the last handful of years and also recently became general partner and founder of a venture firm called MVP Growth Partners, which I believe we'll talk about a little bit later in the episode.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:22]:
We are absolutely going to talk about that. So definitely stay tuned because like I said, I was just like, wait, you could do that? My mind was just expanded after listening to you for one hour. So, anyways, let's get started. You started off as an intern. How did you even end up in this space out of, like, all the different other places you could have interned?

Norman Volsky [00:04:41]:
It's a good question. I was a big sports fan growing up. My mom had a connect in Boston and she was working there at the time when I was in college. So I actually interned at the Boston Celtics my sophomore between, like, junior year. And it was awful. Did a lot of tape review and that's about it didn't interact with anyone, and I certainly wasn't doing great work to the point where I was getting any praise. So I was like, well, how long would I have to do this? And I heard, like, 10 to 15 years is a realistic Runway of how long you have to just kind of cut tape and do a little bit of the grunt work. So I said, you know what? I kind of want to, like, save sports as, like, something that makes me happy and a hobby, but I got to find something else to do.

Norman Volsky [00:05:24]:
So anyways, I honestly just got very lucky. My sister was giving me some advice on how to find an internship locally to Cleveland, and she had a friend who was dating one of the partners in the firm and made an intro on the rest is history.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:39]:
All right, so you got started as an intern. Talk about that.

Norman Volsky [00:05:44]:
Yeah. Just, you know, threw me right to the wolves. You know, there was, like, a project in the first day that was described to me as like, what you're going to do all summer. And then day two, there was overflow of search work. They didn't have anyone to cover some new software engineer role. They're like, norm, why don't give it a shot? And despite me being awful for the first week on the phones, I was very robotic. I eventually hit my stride, and once they heard me go through a recruiting call, smoothly, they said, all right, just do that like, 40 hours a week, and you'll get a good reference on the way out. But did well enough where they even offered me a job on my last day.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:22]:
So did you go back to school, or did you just keep on recruiting all the way through?

Norman Volsky [00:06:27]:
I enjoyed college, so I did go back. But the firm and the business always had had kind of a special place in my heart. It just gave me a little bit unfinished business feel, leaving, and just felt right to come back and to give it, you know, the good old college.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:42]:
Try your first true year in recruiting. What did that actually look like for you?

Norman Volsky [00:06:48]:
You know, it's a lot of rejection, just like anyone else. With that being said, the way I kind of thought about it was, I'm building a foundation. These are the building blocks of my future success. So I just came in, grinded, worked hard, would try to, like, unplug at the end of the day and then just do it again, you know, Monday through Friday. So a lot of it was just reps and, you know, getting comfortable, you know, on the phone and obviously learning, you know, I really would camp out in my boss at the time's office, Mike's office, I'd stop into other partners within the firm, like Dan and David's office. I worked, you know, very closely with Orion, and he gave me some really good tips over the years. So, like, again, you don't achieve success by yourself. Like, I would argue, and my dad gave me this advice when I started working professionally is like, you could learn on your own within 10 years.

Norman Volsky [00:07:36]:
If you surround yourself with really smart people and learn from the best, you might be able to, like, get there in five. And that, like, really stuck with me. So I really came in and tried to, like, build these trusted mentor, mentee relationships, you know, where I was the mentee.

Benjamin Mena [00:07:50]:
I think that's one of the mistake. A lot of, like, newer recruiters, when they come in, like, like, how did you actually. They see the success and they're like, oh, I can do that one day. And they just go, keep on doing what they're doing. How did you start absorbing some of the. The stuff that Mike was doing or the other partners?

Norman Volsky [00:08:06]:
I would be a little more forceful than most, you know, early stage employees where, like, if I just, like, got burnt out, where I'm like, I just can't make a call right now or I can't source anymore, I, you know, need a break. I wouldn't just, like, jump on ESPN.com and like, screw off for like, 20, 30 minutes. I would instead just go into someone else's office and just listen and not, like, just zone out. Like, I would really, like, listen to the call and then ask them after. Like, well, why'd you do this way? Like, why'd you say this? Why'd you ask this? Like, why did you do it in that order? I was, like, very cerebral, trying to learn, like, not only what was said, but why did they say it. And I think that started just this constant re learning the business and always looking at it from every angle.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:52]:
So with all this learning, like, when did it actually. About how many months in or how many years in did it actually start clicking for you?

Norman Volsky [00:08:58]:
Like, the way I describe it, you know, to a lot of people is like, there's plateaus, like, there are things that are hard at first that then get easy over time. And, you know, maybe it's the. All right, like, talk to me about your financial compensation. Like, where are you at right now? Being able to ask that without sounding, like, too scripted, you know, sometimes that can take a recruiter two days. Sometimes it can take a recruiter two decades, like, to ask that question in a very approachable way. You know, again, whether it's that, or whether it's feeling comfortable to take on any search, regardless of, you know, if it's within your wheelhouse or not, or be able to pitch any client, regardless of your knowledge in a market. Like, all those things are different steps and, you know, take longer and longer. But I would say, like, within being comfortable on the phones, that took like, a week to 10 days, feeling like I was at least as good as the average recruiter.

Norman Volsky [00:09:57]:
That took probably six to eight months when it was, hey, I think I'm the best in my specific segment at this, like, specific job to fill. Then maybe a year and a half, two years, and within four years, I felt like I could work any search anytime, anywhere. There's not many people that could do it better because I just know I'm gonna outwork someone.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:21]:
And did they have you start off, like, full desk, or were you, like, 180?

Norman Volsky [00:10:26]:
No, I was really 180. It was, hey, we got a client. They need to fill this norm. Go do your thing. And then maybe a couple years in, I started to say, you know what? Like, I really think I could build some clients. And, you know, even though I'm young, I still think I have something to offer here. Those, like, years three through five were, like, very similar in billings, in production, in success. But I was getting better in those years.

Norman Volsky [00:10:55]:
And, like, year five to six was when, like, everything changed, partially because, you know, I think I just got very confident in how to pitch, like, our services, and I started getting my own clients. And then also, I found this new space, which opened up a whole world of new, new opportunities.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:11]:
So, like, the way that you guys are structured, you guys have, like, teams and everything. Did you just want to have a team, or did you, like, want to grow your own personal desk? Like, what was that motivation to really jump forward to, like, the sales side from this safe recruiting side?

Norman Volsky [00:11:27]:
Yeah, I saw other people doing it, and I felt I had that potential. I had that capability. So, you know, I sat Mike down maybe two years, two and a half years into my tenure, I'm like, mike, I love recruiting. I love the firm, love working with you. Like, there's nothing wrong, but I also think I would not be meeting my potential if I didn't eventually build my own practice. So I said, like, what can I have the goal of starting at some point in the future? Like, we don't know when that will happen. That doesn't step on your toes. He's like, well, I do everything inside the four walls of a hospital from a tech Standpoint, how about you find companies that deliver their health care services outside the four walls of a hospital? So that led me to a lot of, like, remote patient monitoring, telemedicine companies, which were great, but, you know, a lot of them were small startups, weren't growing a ton, were only hiring a little bit every year, and didn't have these huge recruiting budgets to use us on every search.

Norman Volsky [00:12:22]:
So we do, you know, a couple placements with a good client, but you can't really get scale when your biggest clients are only hiring you, you know, one or twice a year, you know, for a strategic position. So eventually I stumbled my way in, in the employee benefits world with a company called Livongo. I got, again, very lucky. I met a company at the time, there were 20, 30 people. I knew a couple of their executives, I assume they sold hospitals. They didn't. They asked me to help them. They asked me to fill 10 open searches.

Norman Volsky [00:12:53]:
You know, I think I closed maybe half of them. And they were all very difficult, like, high leverage searches. And again, you know, in contingent work, if you're batting.300, you're like, going to the hall of fame. Like, placing 50% was really, really nice and definitely a win. That company eventually IPO'd and sold a Teladoc for 18 and a half billion. So, like, my first client also at the same time built my reputation in this new market. And I kind of just like, you know, rode their coattails a little bit into the reputation, you know, of like the recruiter in that space, you know, from probably that, like 2016, 17 through now.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:35]:
So you feel like, here's the thing, a lot of recruiters, like, they'll fill like a few positions for a company. How did you use that to leverage your reputation to go grow and expand the way that you have?

Norman Volsky [00:13:46]:
Yeah, I knew I wanted to build something. So when I got that opportunity, I kind of looked at myself in the mirror and said, norm, you can fill all 10, but if you fill all 10 and you don't have another search in this new space, then you have to start over again. And, like, I didn't want to start over again. I wanted to, like, go into a new market and just build and build and build and like, build on top of it. So what I told myself when I started those searches is, yes, you have to absolutely find great candidates for Livongo for all of these specific roles. But at the same time, I want every CEO and like, hiring manager that I would like to work with one day to know I was working those searches, because I thought, all right, if they know I'm working them, if I play the networking game, if I ask them for their help, if I pitch the living hell out of Livongo, and it occurs to them, like, huh, recruiter I use doesn't sound like that. Or doesn't ask the same questions Norm asks or doesn't call executives to get referred direct contributors like Norm does. I'm creating differentiation in their mind.

Norman Volsky [00:14:53]:
And again, that worked because at the end of some of these calls, when I'd say, hey, Ben, I'm calling you on behalf of one of my top clients, they're doing some awesome things. I want to be honest. This is not for you. You're way overqualified for the job, but you look to be an expert in the space, and I want to pick your brain and network. And then I pitched Livongo. Fantastic. And then asked them who they could recommend. At the end, I would ask, all right, Ben, you've been so helpful, really appreciative.

Norman Volsky [00:15:20]:
How can I help you? And either I would get a what do you mean? How can you help me? Like, and then I'd explain, like, well, like, you hire a team and you have a large company that's successful. Are there any skill sets you're having a hard time finding? Are there any, you know, type of skill sets that if they came across my desk, you'd want to know about them? But more often than not, I would ask that question, and they'd be like, well, I'm looking for a VP of marketing or a customer success leader or more salespeople or whatever it may be, and you get new clients that way. So I would highly recommend to any recruiter, use your current searches as an excuse to call your dream clients. And the challenge is you have to do two things. You have to represent great companies that if you represent them, that enhances your brand. Because, again, if I was pitching a company they thought very little of, that wouldn't mean anything to them. To also, not only, like, you have to have great clients, but you have to, like, pitch really well, and you have to run, like, a really great recruiting call because that's essentially your commercial of, all right, well, this is how this person's going to conduct themselves when they're working on behalf of my organization. Oh, my.

Norman Volsky [00:16:33]:
Always North Star is like, I want to be the best recruiter that person who picked up the phone or who I got introduced has ever talked to. Because if you can establish that in their mind, who do you think they're going to pick to use, you know, when they need to build their team.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:49]:
And just to recap, like, you're the best recruiter calls that you make, like, what are the main points that you try to cover during each of those calls?

Norman Volsky [00:16:56]:
You know, I definitely always want it to be a multipurpose call. Like, I want it to be valuable for me, but more importantly, I want it to be extremely valuable for that other person on the other line. You know, you need to bring value, you need to bring insights, you need to bring knowledge. You have to bring examples of previous successes to, in their mind, kind of put you in a category that they don't put many other people. So what I want to get across in any new call with a new person in my industry, whether they're at manager level or C level or anywhere in between, is I've worked with some of the best companies, I've worked with some of the top talent. I know almost everyone in the space, you know, that's worth knowing. And, and I will be there to help you when you need me. And I'm not going to bark up the wrong tree when the timing is not right.

Norman Volsky [00:17:51]:
So I think what a lot of recruiters get wrong is their high pressure and they're very like, what's in it for me? What am I trying to accomplish? And what's really important in any business, but especially recruiting is like, take yourself out of it. If the client wins and the candidate wins, you win by default. So if you can help those two win, you get to win with them as opposed to win at their expense.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:17]:
Love that. So you started like attacking this industry. I almost say, like, you fell in love with this industry.

Norman Volsky [00:18:24]:
I did, I did. And I got lucky, right? Like I fell into something, I learned about it and it was all like health and wellness. And I come from a healthcare family. Like my mom was the dean of nursing at a couple colleges. My sister is a OB gyn. My dad was a medical malpractice doctor. My uncle ran the radiology department at Stanford. His kid, his son, his oldest son is a radiologist at Harvard.

Norman Volsky [00:18:50]:
My grandfather was a very well known radiologist and his name was Norman. That's why I'm named that. He passed away a couple of months before I was born. So like we have this health care family. My aunt was a doctor. Like everywhere you look there's doctors, there's nurses, you know, there's healthcare people. So it was always part of the discussion. So sure, like hospital software and all that tech was very interesting to me.

Norman Volsky [00:19:12]:
But when it was focused on prevention and keeping people healthy at home. That was even, like, more exciting, at least for me. And the fact that I could, like, be the face of the company and, like, build that out has been a dream come true.

Benjamin Mena [00:19:27]:
You're working in this health space. Like, just out of curiosity, has it also, you know, impacted your own health?

Norman Volsky [00:19:34]:
Yeah, I've had a health journey. You know, I used to have a lot of gastrointestinal symptoms and fatigue. And I got tested and, you know, we found some things and we had to change diet and we had to, you know, have kind of like a different care plan. And I feel so much better than I did 10 years ago when I started this journey. So, yes, my own personal experience, I do believe makes me a better advocate for my clients in the space at large. Because I've seen how small or even medium sized changes in day to day eating habits or exercise habits or sleep or whatever can really make a huge impact on how you feel and how you can perform both professionally and personally.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:21]:
So with all this growth, with starting to, like, take over this industry, starting to become the face. When did you start realizing, and I know this is your talk that I got the chance to see in person.

Norman Volsky [00:20:31]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:32]:
That the investors are the key.

Norman Volsky [00:20:36]:
Yeah, it's a good question. So, you know, when your first client in a new space eventually IPOs and sells for 18 and a half billion, it's again, a huge boost to your personal brand and how others in the market feel about your ability to predict future success. And also those people you placed at that company are eternally grateful. So it all started at conferences when I would meet those dozen or so people I placed at Livongo. And interestingly enough, about eight months after I made those initial placements at Livongo, I get a call from their chief commercial officer and he says, norm, I really need your help. Can you help me? And like, Ben, you know, if your top client calls you, you'll do probably just about anything they ask. So anyways, I'm like, jim, yeah, you got it. What do you need? It's like, well, I'm helping these two entrepreneurs.

Norman Volsky [00:21:29]:
They started this business doing their doctorate thesis, getting their PhD. You know, I really think they're onto something and I think you can help them. I said, okay, I'll meet these guys. So I meet these two, they give me a pitch. And in that pitch, like, I went from, like being in the back of my chair, just kind of listening, figuring, like, this is kind of like a garage style, like out of their parents Garage type company. And what they described to me was something that I thought would be revolutionary. And when I got off the phone with them, I thought to myself, I'm looking at the future and these guys are going to be worth, you know, the company's going to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Little did I know, selling them short.

Norman Volsky [00:22:09]:
Those two people were Dan Perez and Gabriel Mecklenburg, the co founders of a company called Hinge Health. They were the first and still to this day the top company in remote physical therapy. So if you have some sort of musculoskeletal injury, you can either go to in person pt where you have to find a doctor and network and then drive to and from every single time you're going to go get pt. Or you can get a pre programmed iPad sent to your house with smart sensors where you can do all of your PT remotely via telemedicine in the comfort of your own home. 0 copay paid for the employer or health plan that covers your health insurance. So again, like, this was novel concept at the time. They had maybe a couple pilots, they had maybe 15, 20 total employees. They IPO'd a couple of months ago for $3 billion.

Norman Volsky [00:23:00]:
So anyways, with Livongo being the first in Hinge, like within my first year, also being one of the fastest growing companies in the space, we placed three dozen people at Hinge. So when you combine those two groups, we're talking about over $20 billion in like public value in their IPOs. And you have four dozen people that at conferences would give me bear hugs to the point where my like, ribs would be a little sore after coming to these things. Norm, like, do you realize that equity we negotiated hard for in my offer letter that's worth millions now? You're like so happy. It's the best feeling you can have as a recruiter. But you also realize, huh, those investors, they're not doing too bad. Like, those are the people who are really like, earning. So what I asked myself at some point in the future years was, Norm, if you ever meet a company that gets those goosebumps on your arm, the same way those came about when you talked to Dan and Gabriel for the first time, when Jim personally pitched you lavongo for the first time, you cannot not ask.

Norman Volsky [00:24:04]:
Like, you have to at least ask, can I invest or can I take some of my fees and equity? And again, I was very particular on which company. I was willing to kind of do it as a first. Because, you know, this people from our background usually don't get these Opportunities and they definitely don't get them multiple times. So I'm like, all right, if I do this, I got to be really picky and know that if the first one doesn't work, I'm probably not getting a second chance at it.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:31]:
I want to ask about that in a second, but I want to go back to the very beginning of like sitting down with these two. So the Livongo commercial person, it was just like you need to sit down with them. Was it for the purpose of like they needed help hiring or like hey,

Norman Volsky [00:24:44]:
I just some help hiring. But again, a lot of companies need help hiring. You meet probably in our jobs maybe a couple hundred companies a year that you discuss hiring opportunities with. Again, some of them you turn down, some of them might turn you down. Like you're not going to convert all of those. But you know, we talked to a lot of companies, but something about what they said and how they said it and their value prop made me believe they weren't going to be my typical, you know, client or even average client. Like I felt they were going to be a very good one for a lot of reasons. And some of that is growth and success in their own right, which then they'll make more hires.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:28]:
Jumping back to this equity placement, how do you think about, for the people listening that have maybe even thought about that, how do you even talk about that deal with a client?

Norman Volsky [00:25:39]:
That's a really good question. Let's think about in our businesses. Again, like I want to be very specific. I think what I'm about to describe works really well in B2B software. I think direct to consumer technology or brick and mortar businesses that are like manufacturing based or take a lot of capital, like you almost have to throw those out. Like those markets, you're probably not going to be able to do the same thing. So like for example, like someone I deeply respect and who has a kick ass practice, who is one of the top recruiters on the entire planet. Alan Fisher couldn't technically do this because like accounting firms are not B2B software companies.

Norman Volsky [00:26:21]:
You can't found accounting firm and within two years the company's worth billions of dollars. It just doesn't work that way. But in B2B software, if you're niche, we know a lot of information that even investors in our space don't know because we know what companies are hiring, we know what companies are not hiring, we know what companies are selling a lot of technology and services. We know what companies are, we know what pricing models are very popular with the Buyers, we know what pricing models don't resonate with the buyers. We see what they're buying, why they're buying, how they're buying and what quantities they're buying, what the pricing models are. So we get thousands and if we have teams, tens of thousands of data points and if you see pattern recognition and if you can see. Well, this company that I'm just meeting reminds me a lot of other companies that have been successful. They have the same pricing models, they have the same commercial go to market structure, they have the same value prop or general cost savings model that these other companies have been ultra successful are doing.

Norman Volsky [00:27:24]:
You can then use that information to become an informed investor. And then you're not just throwing darts at a dartboard, you're being incredibly strategic. So I made a company a little over two years ago at a conference and I meet this new CEO, never met him before, and I asked him, like, what do you do? He's like, well, I founded a company in this space within the last year. I'm like, well, that's interesting. Tell me about it. Work with a lot of companies. So he gives me his pitch and I got goosebumps. I remember the conversation I had with Dan and Gabriel at Hinge Health eight years prior.

Norman Volsky [00:28:01]:
And I'm like, this is getting me just as jazzed up as they got me all those years ago. And I thought to myself, I'm like, you're not going to let this one, you know, go past and you know, miss, like, you got to ask. So he gives me his two minute spiel on what his company is and I look him right in the eye and I say, elon, I want to tell you two things and they're both going to surprise you. First, that's the best pitch I've heard from an early stage founder since I met the co founders of Hench Health. And he immediately knew who those were and was like, whoa. And I'm like, second thing is, I want to invest. And he's like, norm, are you out of your mind? This is a crazy early stage company. Like, the chances we succeed are very, very low.

Norman Volsky [00:28:39]:
Like, and you're a recruiter, you're not even an investor. Like, what are you talking about? I'm like, well, for your own knowledge, I do invest in some funds that we work with because in a space, usually a venture capital firm will work with a lot of different portfolio companies and have a lot of portfolio companies that sell the same buyer. I noticed a lot of my clients had the same investors. So I eventually met Them got to have a really good relationship with them. They'd refer me business from time to time. And at a certain point, I asked, hey, I love working with you guys. I want to be, you know, working with you guys even closer. If I invested in the fund, would that be something you would want? And they were like, yeah, that would be awesome.

Norman Volsky [00:29:18]:
Because, like, then we know you have a vested interest in our companies, get the best people. So it worked out. So I said, first off, I'm already an LP in a couple funds. Like, I can help you there, meet some new funds. But more importantly, I have a network that can be really, really helpful to you, and I think my network can help you be successful quicker. So he said, well, I get that, but that's your opinion. I kind of need to see it. I said, all right.

Norman Volsky [00:29:44]:
Like, I have no problem showing you what I'm capable of before you give me an opportunity to invest. It actually helps me vet the deal and, like, do my own due diligence in the process. So I'm happy to make the intros because it also helps me. Do you mind if I make a couple intros in the next couple of days? He's like, yeah, no, no, go for it. Like, you got it. So anyways, they described this business that, again, had a lot of similarities from companies that had done extremely well. So within a couple days, he got introduced to nine very influential people in the employee benefits space. And within those days of talking to those people, I get a call from him.

Norman Volsky [00:30:26]:
He's like, blank, check, whatever you want to write, I'll take. Keep introducing me to people like this, and you'll be able to invest in every round we ever have. I'm like, all right, that's awesome. Great. But before I told him how much I wanted to write, I'm like, let me talk to each of them before I get back to you. So I call them and I'm like, what do you think? And they're all like, norm, this is really cool. One of the companies tried to buy the company, others tried partnering. One of them signed a reseller agreement really quickly.

Norman Volsky [00:30:54]:
So I already saw, like, the shrewdest people in my network thought this company was, like, very high potential. So I loved the fact that I could invest. But when I asked, I'm like, hey, can these other people invest? He's like, no. I. Like, obviously they'd be great investors, but I can't have a complicated cap table. I'm going to need to raise a series A and B potentially beyond from institutional investors and they really prefer a very non complicated cap table. So as much as I would love to be able to have all of you invest, I really only have to like allow you the opportunity. And you know, that's just what I can do for you.

Norman Volsky [00:31:35]:
I said, well, again, I appreciate it. I'm going to. With that being said in the future, is there a mechanism where we could invest as a group? He's like, yeah, there's something called an spv. You should do some research on it. So that came in my mind and that's ultimately what generated this whole last two and a half year project of creating my own like venture firm along with a couple other partners along the way. That's given us a level of upside in this business that I never could have dreamed of. And again, it all is dependent on being very knowledgeable and a top recruiter, like in this niche market, which gives us the opportunity to do it with some of these.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:19]:
Like when you're doing like a equity and like an equity trade for recruiting, is it the whole fee? Do you get equity? Is it partial fees? Like how do you structure that?

Norman Volsky [00:32:28]:
Sometimes you can choose your own adventure. I invested cash personally. Okay, first was all cash. The second tranche was a combination of cash and some search work paid in equity. I had to buy my partners out of like that share because, you know, I wanted that on my side. So we worked something out there. And then interestingly, my third bite of the apple at that company was an SPV where we raised over 850k when the business was worth $18 million. And that bought us about 4.7% of the company.

Norman Volsky [00:33:05]:
But what's exciting is not that we raised 850k in total, it's that we raised it from over 80 investors. And what that's done is it now has 80 industry insiders who are all incentivized to help that company thrive. And that's why the amount we've helped, I would argue, and I think Elon would agree, it's probably more than 4.7% of the help they've received. So we're much out kicking our coverage in terms of what we own versus, like how much we've helped.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:36]:
So these are, these are 80 other people that like, we're willing to like, hey, I trust Norm, I.

Norman Volsky [00:33:41]:
We trust each other, right? Like, I invested because they recommended it. And it's that fact that all 80 of us helped ourselves vet the deal further than any of us could have vetted it ourselves. And that's the magic of what we've created.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:59]:
I want to stop there. Like, this is 80 people that in the industry that have a massive amount of respect for you. If I'm in another industry or I'm a recruiter listening to this, what's a game plan to get 80 people to trust me, write a check to be part of me?

Norman Volsky [00:34:14]:
Yeah, well, it's a couple things. It's doing work over a very long period of time and doing it very well. So again, at that point, I already had eight years of experience in that space. I had recruited for some of the most successful companies in the history of the market. And I've consistently, along with my team, built the reputation that, hey, if you want to grow a world class talent organization, you know, and bring in the best talent, like there's really one first option, you know, if you want to be that next unicorn. Because a lot of other companies that have gotten a billion dollar valuations, you know, have used us. And it almost can be seen as a rite of passage in our market. So, yes, there are a lot of steps to get there, but it's just showing up, working your ass off every day and trying to be the best recruiter in your niche.

Norman Volsky [00:34:59]:
Unless you're that it's almost impossible to do. The second part of this, the 500 members we have now, and at the time I think we had 400. So again, 25% of our group invested, 75% did not. So like, it's not like we got the majority of people to invest. Like, there were still some people who weren't so sure if we would be able to make it successful. But it all started growing in numbers of like, how many people were interested in this? When I first asked those first, nine people or eight people, whatever it was, hey, like, if I find another one of these that you're excited about, would you consider investing? And they're like, yeah, like, as long as I don't have to, like be obligated to, I'd love the option to like, see what you're looking at. Then I started to ask myself, all right, am I as different as I think I am at the early stage investor standpoint? So I reached out to every CEO I knew of that had driven evaluation over 100 million in my space. And I reached out and I said, hey, I'm not going to spend more than five minutes, but I want to ask you three questions.

Norman Volsky [00:36:06]:
Number one, how helpful were your early investors in introducing you to potential clients? That was like almost zero. Like, they're like, yeah, like, it was very Much sink or swim. We really didn't start getting intros to potential clients until series A or even series B. Like, those investors had the connections. The early stage investors did not have, like a niche expertise and like a specific knowledge of a one market. They're just more spray and pray. Let's make 100 investments. Maybe 10 hit 90 will go to zero.

Norman Volsky [00:36:40]:
That wasn't the type of numbers I was looking for. So that was the first piece. The second question I asked was, how often do other companies, early stage companies, approach you to be an advisor or a board member of their companies? And that was very few and far between. Sure, like, Jim was an advisor of Hinge, but like, one of the only times an executive at a company also sits as an advisor of another company, usually because they're not asked, not that they're not allowed to. So I asked like, hey, would you want to do more advisory work and sit on boards if there was that option? They're like, yeah, 100%. Like, I would love that. Last question I asked is, how often do you get to invest in companies that you believe in in this space? And they said, that's never. I have never been approached by a founder or even a venture syndicate to invest in a deal in a space I know well.

Norman Volsky [00:37:35]:
So I said, like, if I come across a company I'm bullish on, I'm most likely going to put my own money in. Would you at least want to see it as a potential opportunity to invest? No strings attached, no obligation to invest? That list ballooned over 200 people. And when that happened, I realized, like, all right, I have something real here. But to your point, how many people are going to write a four figure or even five figure check to an executive recruiter who's never run a venture firm and is willing to trust that, like, I know the market as well as I think I do. So again, I was realistic. I wasn't going to build this thing myself, didn't want to build it myself. So I asked myself, all right, who in my network has a very different skill set than I do that can really be strong where I'm weak and bring people into the group that I want in that I don't have access to? So the first person I reach out to is a guy named Jason Perot. Again, the area of expertise I'm in is employee health benefits.

Norman Volsky [00:38:36]:
He happened to be the head of benefits at and T and Boeing Airlines for 27 years combined. So, like two Fortune 40 companies, he built some of the most sophisticated benefits offerings in the entire country at those two groups, and was also a founder of a incubator of sorts within the employee benefits space that was designed to help early stage companies get exposure to potential buyers of innovative technologies. So he was a really unique person to bring in. And when I asked him, hey, you're already a part of my first 200, I want to get you more involved. How more involved would you potentially want to get? Said Norm, I've been actually meaning to call you. I love what this is, like, more than, you know, I want to run this thing with you. Like, I want to be an equal partner. I'm like, jason, that's amazing.

Norman Volsky [00:39:31]:
I haven't really thought about what the structure would look like. The group is already 200 people. Like, just walk me through how I can justify that not saying no, but I do want to understand, like, why that would make sense, like, from your perspective. Walk me through it says, well, I have a network, and I could probably add 200 benefits leaders who are currently leading benefits at a Fortune 1000 company into this group. Say, jason, the second you cross 200, we're equal partners. No problem with that. What yours is mine. What's mine is yours.

Norman Volsky [00:40:06]:
You know, the whole way. But I can't split it 50, 50 with you because I think we need a third person. You've run benefits and been the customer. I've seen all these different angles of the business from my unique seat, but I've never run commercial at one of these companies. And there's a phenotype in our market called benefits consultants that are very influential in the buying process. They're invited to every RFP and pitch of a new vendor. So I said, we've never either been in a consulting firm either, and, like, they're obviously very important stakeholders in these deals. I'm like, I'd like to find someone who's done both.

Norman Volsky [00:40:44]:
So we can really do this with three partners. So the person I had in mind is going to Manny Menendez. He's fantastic. He was CRO of a company called Consumer Medical that sold for over 300 million as his last exit. That was actually bigger than you would expect or think in the fact that they didn't take any venture money. So, like, all of that went to the original, like, angel investors and the employees, like, they didn't have to take 200 to 300 and pay their investors back. That was all profit. So that was super big exit.

Norman Volsky [00:41:17]:
And very notable. He also exited a business called Bloom Health. So he had done a couple, and he had been a Benefits consultant for over a decade at Hewitt and Associates, which is now Aon. And he spent a couple of years at Towers, which is now Willis Towers Watson. Those are two of the three biggest benefits consulting firms in the world. So when I was able to have both of them join and become equal partners and, you know, help me build this into what it is Today with over 500 potential investors, I felt like we had something truly unique. And so far, you know, the market has reacted really well to us and what we're doing.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:53]:
And with all this, you now have like 500 people in this venture network.

Norman Volsky [00:41:57]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:58]:
Are you also getting a lot of like, hey, I know you, I've invested with you, but I also need recruiting help.

Norman Volsky [00:42:04]:
Of course, like, that's going to happen naturally. Like, that is almost a foregone conclusion that, like, if you're going to invest your money with us, you'll probably trust us to do your recruiting work also. And again, we can't represent every client. We have some certain conflicts of interest. And you know, it doesn't always convert for one reason or another. But yes, like, has it helped my recruiting business a ton. My podcast has helped my recruiting business. Like, all these things have.

Norman Volsky [00:42:31]:
And again, like, people ask me all the time, especially in the last year, norm, like, how much of your time are you spending on venture versus recruiting? And like, they're trying to figure it out. And I'm like, hang on, let me just explain it to you this way. First I'll give you like, the logical, like, answer and then I'll give you an analogy which is like, really telling. The logical answer is, what's the job of a recruiter and a venture capitalist to meet with early stage companies if they're in a, like, new market that's growing, that have the opportunity to grow. If I meet a company like that, they can easily be a recruiting client. If they meet certain other thresholds, they may be able to be an investment. But again, like, I am in, my partners are so picky on what we pick to invest in. Again, we might only do a couple deals a year.

Norman Volsky [00:43:18]:
We're not trying to do massive volume. We're trying to put a lot of effort into a very few amount of companies that we really believe in that, you know, have really strong references from their existing client base. So again, like, my day is just spent talking to early stage founders of very high potential companies and they'll go down one or both paths just naturally. And when people, you know, ask, well, like, what is this? Like, like use an analogy the way I describe it is I get to go fishing every day with the people I like, listen to the music I like, and we're catching fish every single day. Like recruiting, right? Like finding great candidates, finding great clients, making a deal every couple of days. Like, that's the just fishing and catching the fish. But maybe once or twice a year a whale comes on that line and I get to, you know, bring in the whale occasionally as well. That's the investment.

Norman Volsky [00:44:16]:
So again, like, it's all a part of the business model and one doesn't take away from the other. They actually like both combined, make the other side stronger. But you got to think of it as, hey, I'm going to meet a lot of companies. Not many of them can be investments, but when one does, do I have an infrastructure built to actually support it and drive value, you know, for that founder? Because we don't want to be one hit wonders. Like, we want our first couple deals to help us get our next deals. Because they're so effusive in their praise that we were really helpful and they wouldn't have gotten to where they got to, you know, without our.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:57]:
I'm going to be honest with you. I really believe that 2026 is your year. I truly believe in you. I truly believe with everything in my heart that this is the year that you can own it. This is the year that you could hit your dreams. And to help you do that, we are kicking off a summit called this is your year. You are elite. You were born out to be elite.

Benjamin Mena [00:45:21]:
You were born to be the best. You were born to be the greatest. And I'm pulling together some of the industry's best speakers to help you get there. Going to be kicking off April 27th. You do not want to miss this. Make sure to run to the show notes, get registered. All the live sessions are free. I'm bringing in Mike Williams, Brianna Rooney, Mark Whitby.

Benjamin Mena [00:45:41]:
We have an entire week of stacked speakers that are going to help you achieve your dreams. This is going to be the industry event that you do not want to miss. I believe in you. I believe in you so much that I'm pulling the best to help you achieve your dreams. 2026 is your year. All right, so you've like, I love that you've absolutely mastered this market. You've become the go to person. So let me take a step back looking at market mastery and the stuff that you're actively doing this very moment or maybe have done recently.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:16]:
You have a podcast, you have an investment firm almost every Single time I chat with you, you're at a conference and you're not at your desk. You are bouncing across the country at a conference. You're talking to investors. What else are you doing on this? Completely dominating a market.

Norman Volsky [00:46:35]:
It's just helping people every day. It's meeting great people, getting referred to their great people and people they recommend, and just generally meeting someone being like, hey, I'm Norm, here's what I do, here's what I've done. But like, how can I help you? Like, where does all these things I do fit into your goals? And when you help other people, you end up getting helped yourself. But you gotta start with, what can I do for you? And then you do enough for them where they're like, hey, how can I return the favor? And it's like, let's just help someone else.

Benjamin Mena [00:47:07]:
Nine years ago, when you started talking to these VCs and PE firms, how did you actually get in the door? Or was it the companies that you supported that really created those openings?

Norman Volsky [00:47:17]:
At first it was a combination of either telling my story of like, hey, here are the companies I represented and you've heard of them, they've done well. Like, I can do that for your portfolio or ask my clients, hey, can I get referred to your investors? Like, they, it looks like, invest in these other companies. I'm not working with them. They are ideal clients. They're actually like, in markets I'm super passionate about, personally. Would love to be able to help them. Are you open to making an intro? Have we done well enough for you that you'd recommend us to other groups within that venture firm? So, you know, it's really just again, asking for help, you know, And I think that's what a lot of people get wrong about a lot of businesses, but especially whether it be recruiting or investing, you only start to stagnate when you decide yourself that you can't learn anything more or you've learned everything there is to learn. And I see this a lot with the people who go to the best colleges, you know, go to the Ivy leagues, get their mba, work for, for, you know, one of the very well respected management consulting firms or something that's like very prestigious.

Norman Volsky [00:48:28]:
And then they leave and they're like, well, I'm a made person. Like, I went to this school, I worked at this company. Like, I know everything and anyone who hasn't, like, knows nothing. There is some of that and we, we see that occasionally. But what I would say is, you know, again, like, if you're always thirsting to learn and learn from people who know more than you. Like, you'll never cap out.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:50]:
You also mentioned earlier in the podcast, like, with all the conversations that you have, all the conversations that your team has, there's a lot of data points. First of all, how are you capturing those data points and then how are you analyzing those data points to like, see how the market's moving? Like, hey, this is where we need to go recruit in or maybe this is where we might need to go invest.

Norman Volsky [00:49:07]:
Yeah, you know, I'm very strategic with my team and I communicate with my team about the big picture strategy of what we're doing. So like my entire team knows like what we look for in clients, how we want to operate a recruiting business. So what I've tried to build over the last 10 years since I've been like managing, so to speak, I think Mitch has been with me almost like 8 plus years now is we want the best clients. Like we want to work for the companies people want to work for. So I asked my team, is there any companies that we just really struggle to recruit out of? If we can't beat them, join them. If we can't get their people out, why don't we just make them a client? Because we're not getting anything currently out of trying to recruit people out. People are happy, people are thrilled, they're great. Let's get more people through the front door, not try taking people out the back.

Norman Volsky [00:49:59]:
And then two, I'm asking what companies are doing great? Like what companies are hard to recruit out of? Are there certain companies where it's really hard to recruit salespeople or marketing people or product people out of. And like, I also want to understand why is that company succeeding? Is it because the products the best? Is it because they have the best sales team and they like go to market commercially extremely well? So again, like, I am just always curious of why companies win, why companies lose, why some succeed, why some fail. And if you're able to either mentally or like on some sort of like Excel spreadsheet or program track all these things, you can start to see pattern recognition either in the data or just by like recall.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:48]:
What's the biggest data points that you watch now?

Norman Volsky [00:50:51]:
I watch for business models. How do they drive revenue? What value do they bring to the customer? Is there a guarantee or like performance based metric in their pricing model? Do they actually save the customer money in year one or even month one post implementation is very important in the employee benefits space. So there's certain things I look for and again like all of those could be the right things. But if you have the wrong founders and it's either the wrong fit for you personality wise with your venture firm or you're just like, there's nothing about these founders that remind me of any of the ones I've worked with that have been successful. That's probably a red flag. So it's hard to find a company that you see all the great things on unlike the bones of the business and you believe in the founders. If you find both, there's a lot of mistakes that can be made and a lot of things wrong with the business that the business can still thrive. But if you have a flawed business model or a flawed founding team, there's almost nothing that can fix that.

Benjamin Mena [00:51:59]:
Okay, now talking about really cool company

Norman Volsky [00:52:02]:
where I don't like the founding team, I will track them and I'm like, huh, maybe in a couple years I can buy them for not much and then bring in a leadership team that we pick that can execute on that very good business model.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:17]:
I love the vision right there. I want to talk about your team real quick. So you started growing your team about nine years, eight, what was it, 10 years ago? How big is your team now?

Norman Volsky [00:52:27]:
Yeah, so again we have 10 full time and then we have a couple people that are cross function. So what do I mean by that? Those two are people that focus on a specific skill set and they can do it within digital health, but they can also do it anywhere else. Ben Shamus does great on our finance roles. Cfo, VP of finance, but he can do it for hospital software company, he can do it for any tech company or any company at all. He's the best CFO recruiter in the country in my opinion. I've yet to meet someone better then Shawna here. Shawna Rosner, she's an attorney. She places our general counsel and associate general counsel positions but she also places people at her law firm clients, other corporations like digital health she can do, but she can do anything that's within the legal realm.

Norman Volsky [00:53:15]:
And then everyone else is specifically focused on digital health only. So we have people who are focused on sales, marketing, product ops, client service and account management, private product marketing, tech, you name it. So the way I segment my team is I have specialists that do a specific function. So it's marketing. Could be a chief marketing officer, could be a senior marketing manager of engagement marketing or anything in between. The same person works it because they have expertise in marketing within digital health. Doesn't matter what the level of role is they can do anything high, low, side to side. And it's the same thing in all the other functions.

Norman Volsky [00:53:59]:
So what I realized is what makes me a great recruiter and potentially a great investor. I know my niche really well. I almost make it easier on my team where I'm like, you just need to know the niche within the niche. You need to know the niche of digital health, and you need to know the niche of product or marketing or development and technology or sales. You don't need to do all roles at all times for all people, allowing you to specialize, allowing you to become an expert much, much quicker. And the other advantage, as people build their teams, there's very little infighting. Everyone's happy for each other when they succeed because there's no jealousy. It's not like, well, why did Tyler get that chief operating officer position? It's like, because he places operations people.

Norman Volsky [00:54:43]:
Not because, like, he brought me a sourdough. His, you know, wife baked. Even though that is very much appreciated. Didn't hurt, but wasn't the reason, you know, so these are the things that, like, again, some people don't think of, but, like, what you want to create within a recruiting firm and a recruiting team is camaraderie and trust and, you know, a team that roots for each other, it's a lot easier when they don't feel like they're competing with each other.

Benjamin Mena [00:55:09]:
What is the billings of the team look like? And also maybe like, what do yours look like with everything you have going on?

Norman Volsky [00:55:15]:
Yeah, it's fluctuated quite a bit. So I'm only sharing this to give people context. Hey, like, what did billings increase from the time you were top recruiter on Mike's team to starting your own practice? And like, what did that do? So I mentioned I was kind of stagnant in year three to five. I was averaging billings. Not take home pay. I wish. Trust me, in those three to five years, I think it was like averaging somewhere between 4 to 500 of billings, which is good. Like, it's good enough to get you in a pinnacle.

Norman Volsky [00:55:45]:
Nothing to sneeze at. But like, do we know? Plenty of people do a hell of a lot more. Yes. You know, wasn't satisfied, wasn't content. That year I met Livongo was like, I remember I met them in November. So, like, I technically didn't make the placements to like, December, January. So, like, all those billings probably hit January of that next year. I remember the end of Q1 of the next year.

Norman Volsky [00:56:09]:
I had billed 400 plus in that first quarter. So I had already matched my three years prior, like average production just in the first three months. I finished the year right under a million. I think I was like 9:70 that first year going into the new space. After that I kind of fluctuated from like low ones. I think 1.2 is the next year. And then when I started hiring a team, we went up to like 3ish. And then in the COVID year, I think it went from three to six, like overnight in that like 20, 20 year.

Norman Volsky [00:56:45]:
That was insane. And like very, very small team. We have yet to hit those numbers since until this year. We should pass $6 million this year with about 10 people, give or take. And again, three of those people are ops people. So they're not all recruiters. We do have some ops function. So my billings have kind of vacillated between like one and a half and two and a half the last like five years, which I'm extremely proud of and really exciting.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:11]:
I know we were talking beforehand, like you've made operational function the ops function a priority. Talk about that.

Norman Volsky [00:57:18]:
So I'm not going to lie. You cannot build a recruiting practice without working your ass off. At least at this level. Like it can't be done. You need to work extremely hard. But I think what I didn't do in the early years was work overly smart and strategic. And I realized this a couple years ago. I was doing great, like one of the top producers in my firm, or even like in Pinnacle for that matter.

Norman Volsky [00:57:42]:
But I felt like I was burning out. Like, I felt like I don't know how much longer I can do this at this pace. A couple years ago, and I was 34 at the time, like it was not time for me to just say, all right, well, it's been a good career. I'm out. So I'm like, all right, I gotta make this like scalable long term and make it achievable long term. You know, to do it without feeling like I was burning the candle at both ends. I truly had felt like I created a very lucrative hamster wheel for myself. That as long as I was running, like the money was coming, but like I was going nowhere.

Norman Volsky [00:58:19]:
Like I wasn't growing, I wasn't doing anything strategic. I was just kind of maintaining what we had built as a group. So about two years ago, I, you know, talked to Tyler on my team. I said, tyler, you're a kick ass recruiter. You do some positions extremely well, but I think you can help the team more if you spend part of your Time recruiting, but part of the time is my chief of staff, who can help me with some of the tasks that you could easily do at the same level. I can and give me a little bit of scalability. So that was my first attempt, and that was great. Tyler's been awesome in the role and, like, he's grown so much.

Norman Volsky [00:59:00]:
He trains recruiters on my team. He, you know, helps manage client interactions. He closes deals, finds all the potential landmines and deals that, you know, our less experienced team, you know, doesn't know to look for. He's just like air traffic control. Unlike all the deals in process, he's awesome. But even he couldn't do it all alone. So then about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, ish. I don't know.

Norman Volsky [00:59:30]:
Time flies. I hired Randy as my ops manager. He came in, kicked ass. Our production increased. I felt like I was able to do more strategic things. Obviously, in that time, I built, like, this VC firm, which I never would have been able to do. Like, just kind of doing things the way we used to do them. And even he earlier in the year was like, norm, I'm getting to my capacity.

Norman Volsky [00:59:52]:
Like, things are starting to fall through the cracks. Can I make a hire? I'm like, sure, just walk me through the business case. It's like, what does that mean? Like, all right, let's like, walk through it. And then like, after a little iterating, he was like, all right, we hire this person. Here's what she can do. Here's what this can free me up to do. Here's what this can free up you up to do. And like, this should allow us to build more.

Norman Volsky [01:00:14]:
And so far, Tyler and Randy's recommendations have really helped us hit a level of production we haven't hit since a once in a lifetime generational pandemic. That had some advantages at least in our business. Well, where now we feel like we can sustain the success for a long time without any one person, especially me, burning up.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:39]:
I got two more questions before we jump over to the quick fire questions. Just to be cognizant of the time and everything. You still got a few more minutes? Okay, I do. You've talked about the Friday dashboard. What is that?

Norman Volsky [01:00:49]:
Friday dashboard?

Benjamin Mena [01:00:50]:
The five metrics that you need to watch to keep your desk healthy.

Norman Volsky [01:00:53]:
I actually don't have, like, five in particular. My general, like, am I doing the right things? Am I pointing in the right direction? Is the team point in the direction? Is, are we meeting great new people every day? Like, for me, I'M like, I need to meet founders of new companies I've never heard of. Every single day, my team's like, hey, if I'm in marketing focused or product focused or like, you need to meet new people that you've never met before. And if you every single day are meeting anywhere from two to five new people, I'd say for a new recruiter, maybe like 8 to 10 a day. New people like you are constantly adding to your candidate war chest at which to pull from at some point. Again, I think what a lot of people get wrong is someone gets a search from their client and they're like, well, I need to fill it so they call people and pitch that job. That's not what a recruiter does. That's what, like, monster does.

Norman Volsky [01:01:55]:
What we need to do is, like, we need to understand a candidate's growth path and what they're trying to achieve in their career and only tell them about the opportunity if it fits what they're looking for. If it doesn't, you can still talk to them. You can still tell them about it, but you got to be like, actually, based on everything you just shared, I don't think you're a candidate. Here's why. I don't think it's going to be a great fit for you. Do I have your permission to still tell you about it? So we can network and maybe help recommend it to someone in your network who you're friends with. But just being honest and being very direct and upfront about fit, I think, is what separates good from really good recruiters.

Benjamin Mena [01:02:33]:
You're part of the Pinnacle society. Why did you join them and what does that mean to you?

Norman Volsky [01:02:38]:
Yeah, so Pinnacle's an amazing group. I'm lucky to have just been elected to the board, which I'm just thrilled over Pinnacle's 80 of the top boutique recruiters in the country. And what I. I wanted to do in joining maybe about four years ago. Ish. Was I wanted to be exposed to a peer group the best. Like, I wanted to be in a room where there were other people who had achieved much more and had way more years of experience than I did. Because, again, like, I think a key to my success has been just trying to learn from as many people as humanly possible and never feeling like, all right, I've gotten to this level of success.

Norman Volsky [01:03:21]:
Like, I'm done learning now. Like, I'll learn till the day I'm dead. Like, I just feel that way. I'm a lifelong learner. So for me, it was just an opportunity. To learn from the best and be able to have a peer group of people that are all driven to be the best and to be great and really elevate recruiting to a new level externally, like for people not in the business. And that's, you know, what really drives us to what we strive for.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:48]:
We've covered a lot. And before we jump over to the quick fire questions and they don't need to be quick answers, is there anything else that I should have asked you that you want to go deeper on?

Norman Volsky [01:03:57]:
I would just say just don't make this business about you. And I'm not saying to you, Ben, I think you know this, but like any recruiter, like, whenever something happens, it's not happening to you. Like, that person's doing what they think is either in the best interest of their company or, or the best interest of them and their families. So like when someone turns down a job, they didn't turn down the job because they think norms are schmuck. Like, they turn the job down because they didn't think was the best move for that. Same thing with like your hiring managers. They don't not accept, you know, make an offer because they're like, oh yeah, like Ben, you know, did this or did that. Like, it's because they didn't think that person would be a good fit for the hire they're trying to make.

Norman Volsky [01:04:43]:
So, like, as much as I can try not to take things personally because I think a lot of people spend so much time wondering why'd this happen to me? And they sulk and they tell every colleague they have about the God awful counteroffer that got accepted or whatever. It's like, just get over it, move on. Like, a lot of good will happen in this business, yes, some bad, like any businesses like that. But like, I do see recruiters in general make a lot of things about themselves that have nothing to do with so true.

Benjamin Mena [01:05:15]:
Jumping over to the quick fire questions, like I said, don't need to be quick answers. You've been around a lot of elite recruiters. Like, what is one of the biggest pieces of advice that you would give to a recruiter that wants to go from good to elite?

Norman Volsky [01:05:28]:
I would say one of the quickest fixes of taking someone from an average to a good or very good recruiter is ultimately, why would you be interested in this job? And if you're pitching a job that even you can't get excited about, like, why should the other person be excited about it? So like, do not get on the phone until your pitch is something that you sound animated and excited about. Until then, wait. Do not make a single first call because you only have one chance to make a first impression. So I think it's really important people realize, like, unless you have enthusiasm, unless you have excitement and positivity in your voice when pitching your clients, you're almost doing them a disservice. So you got to make your pitch as sexy as possible. But also, the pitch is great, so to speak. You don't share the pitch until you understand that person. You get to know them, you understand, you know, what they're trying to accomplish in their career and what they are looking for.

Norman Volsky [01:06:28]:
Because again, as I said before, our job is not to call someone, say, hey, do you have a few minutes? And go, great, Let me tell you about this amazing opportunity and just spill your guts like that. It's not how to do this business. Like, it's about finding fits. It's not about pitching jobs or opportunities.

Benjamin Mena [01:06:46]:
So for a lot of recruiters, they're working in a niche and, like, riches are in the niches, especially with. With your success. Like, how can they adopt more of, like, an agent mindset to really just dominate?

Norman Volsky [01:07:01]:
It's, again, a daily task of showing up and doing your best when you're feeling well. Not feeling well doesn't matter. Like, you gotta come in and work hard because again, it could be your 14th call of the day. That's the first time that person is ever talking to you. And you have to be first time fresh. So I would just say, if your goal is to dominate a niche, just do your absolute best every day. Ask yourself daily, how can I be better tomorrow than I am today? Keep trying to tweak things, but most importantly, learn from the people you're talking to. You can't learn a niche faster than learning from people in your niche that have been doing it longer.

Norman Volsky [01:07:43]:
So how do I feel? I'm one of the more knowledgeable people in my niche after 10 years because I've talked to 1000s of people that in certain respects know a ton more than me about certain things. But because they taught me that little thing, and I also got someone else's, like, great insight on something they're really knowledgeable about. The combined amount of information I have is very hard to compete with because I just tend to be very curious and want to know, well, why have you been successful? What have you done that's so unique? You know, what insight do you have to share that very few others have? Like, you end up learning a lot by being Exposed to a lot. So I would really recommend especially people new in a niche. Don't try to fake it. Like, if you are like pretending like you're the top recruiter in a niche but you really don't know it that well and you're new to it, you're going to stick out like a sore thumb. If you say, hey, I'm new to the niche, I'm super passionate, super excited about it, but I'm still trying to learn. Tell me about this company.

Norman Volsky [01:08:44]:
What do they do? Why is that valuable? Who do they compete with? Why were you winning? Why were you losing? Tell me about your this company. Tell me about that company. Like, you learn a lot just by asking questions and be curious. Don't try to not ask questions because you think it makes you sound like an expert. People like helping people. So if you just share, hey, I'm trying to learn and this is what I want to learn from you. Usually people volunteer it.

Benjamin Mena [01:09:13]:
I think you've used the word learn about 18 or 19 times over the course of the last hour. Are you a reader?

Norman Volsky [01:09:22]:
I try to read. I wish I had more time for it, but I love to read.

Benjamin Mena [01:09:26]:
So learning wise, what's the best place that you've learned something from outside of the recruiting niche and focusing on the industry?

Norman Volsky [01:09:34]:
Again, it's talking to people. You can learn a lot in a textbook and a lot on Google and a lot in ChatGPT, like finding and sourcing information. You cannot learn quicker than hearing it from someone who knows that subject matter better than you do. So again, encourage you. If you're trying to learn anything, go to an expert. Say, hey, I'm coming to you because I perceive you as an expert and can I learn from you? Are you open to helping me? Are you open to me asking you some questions? You'd be shocked. How many incredible, incredibly successful people do you don't think take those calls that do? When asked if you can go back

Benjamin Mena [01:10:13]:
in time with everything that you know now, the team you've built, the conversations, the investment fund. Go back to when you pass the internship you first got started. Well, maybe like a year afterwards, you know what the hell you're doing, what advice would you go back and tell yourself?

Norman Volsky [01:10:29]:
Invest in Livongo and Hinge when you get the chance. But other than that, I'm just playing. I would just tell myself it's all going to be worthwhile. Put your head down and do not let yourself get distracted. I would say I was somewhat distracted in different respects for the first five to six Years. I think the last eight or so, I've been very focused. And I think, of course, there's things I could have done differently, but for the most part, I got the broad strokes right. But again, I think the thing I would say about recruiting, and it is true of a lot of things, the only people who don't succeed are the ones that give up.

Norman Volsky [01:11:15]:
So if you just don't give up and you keep working and you keep persevering and you keep learning from people that know a hell of a lot more than you, you will succeed. And it's just to what degree?

Benjamin Mena [01:11:27]:
So if you want a good laugh, this next question actually came from you over dinner that I've been asking. Okay, so this is all your fault.

Norman Volsky [01:11:34]:
Thank you. All right, I'll have to eat my own medicine.

Benjamin Mena [01:11:38]:
What's one of the biggest challenges that you've had to work through?

Norman Volsky [01:11:41]:
One of the biggest challenges is, I think, over time, managing and hiring people that have different skill sets and personalities and motivations. You know, I think over the last five, seven years, since I've really, like, hired most of my team, I've just learned a little bit more to delegate and to be trusting and to let people learn and fail at times without, like, getting micromanage or, like, getting my hands, you know, into things. Because those learning experiences can be really, really valuable. You know, I think I would certainly tell myself that. And then obviously, like we discussed, creating an operations function, investing in your business for the future growth is something like I would very much want to recommend to my previous self and others. Like, that has just been such an unlock, and it's allowed me, you know, to really drive both of these businesses forward by investing in things that just make myself and even my recruiters and my team hyper efficient.

Benjamin Mena [01:12:56]:
I was going to ask the last question, but I'm popping in a new one real quick. So you. You technically you work for direct recruiters, but you. You run your own firm almost within there. If somebody wants to do that, how did they have that conversation? Like, I'm willing to go build my own place under this umbrella. How did that conversation really start? Or was that a model that was already there?

Norman Volsky [01:13:16]:
People had done the, like, spawn off or spawn spin off, you know, as some say before, Like, I wasn't the first person to be like, hey, I feel I'm high potential, and I do want to start my own, like, new category. But my advice is just walk into your mentor or boss's office or whatever you want to call it, and just walk them through like, what you want your career to be. Hey, like, I do want to start my own thing at some point. And if you have a certain market in mind or a certain timeline in mind, it's great to share that. But just explain that, hey, I appreciate everything you did for me. I'm not going to leave you hanging. I will build this, but also continue to service you and our clients until you feel and until I help you replace me and help that next person replace my production. And I'll mentor and coach and, you know, help them in any way I can.

Norman Volsky [01:14:18]:
I think that's the right way to do it, and that's the way I did it. And ultimately, that first year where, again, like, my production, you know, doubled a little bit over and, you know, it was really my breakout year. I had to make big sacrifices. Like that call from Jim Hursley when he's like, hey, I need to hire 10 people. That happened on, like, a Thursday or Friday. I showed up Saturday morning, and I worked seven days a week for probably the first six months, ten hours a day. And I don't think I took many, if any days off. Definitely not Monday through Friday, but even the weekends.

Norman Volsky [01:14:52]:
Like, I think I almost showed up every day, at least for like, three or four hours on the weekends. And why did I do that? Because, number one, was the right thing to do. And two, it was my safety net that, like, if this doesn't take off, I can't just leave Mike high and dry. And. And then when I go back and say, well, it didn't work out, like, can I get searches again? He's like, what are you talking about? Like, you just dropped all the search work I had threw it back at me and said, go find someone else. Like, I wasn't going to do that, nor should anyone. So for that first six months, maybe even nine months, I was, like, juggling. I was building this new practice and continuing to recruit, like, in that old space on my own and many of Mike's clients.

Norman Volsky [01:15:35]:
And then eventually I'm like, hey, this thing's taken off. There's no shortage of companies that are going to need recruiting help in the employer and health plan market. I really want to build this thing. And I think, again, like, the teammates we have are ready, like, to take up, like, that amount of production of, like, 400, 500K of recruiting billings. So I would say come with your hat in hand, but also, like, over deliver in the transition period.

Benjamin Mena [01:16:04]:
You're part of the Pinnacle board. You're around some of the best recruiters. I see you online. You got a podcast. Like, you're out there all the time. Like, with what you've done for work, I'm sure you get questions like, how do you do this? How do you pitch this? How do you get into a vc? Some of the questions I gave you, with all those questions that you've probably gotten, is there a question you wish, like, people would actually ask you, but they never do?

Norman Volsky [01:16:24]:
Yes, I love the question, and it's been asked me very few times. What do most recruiters mess up that is so easy or so obvious that just for whatever reason, the greats do it, but no one's identified? Like, oh, this is actually more key than it is. Think about this in your day to day, how much of what you're exposed to is generally negative? Like the news you see on your phone and on Facebook, and like, everywhere you go, there's negativity, there's doom and gloom, there's all these things. And everyone in recruiting's told, well, yeah, you gotta be different. What does that mean? The first thing you can do to differentiate yourself is to be positive, to be high energy, to be optimistic, because no one needs another negative pessimist in their life. So if your goal is like, hey, how do I drive strong relationships? How do I separate myself and be memorable? The first thing you can do is be very upbeat, very positive, and very optimistic. And I know that can be very hard for, like, people who are not that by nature. But I am telling you, if you're coming off as negative or doom and gloom, I promise you, you're wearing your clients out and your candidates out.

Norman Volsky [01:17:51]:
And although they'll never tell you or they probably might not even know, like, why they don't communicate with you as much as you'd like them to, it really comes down to when they see your name pop up on their phone, do they get a smile and laugh and kind of be like, oh, I want to take that call? Can I, like, justify taking it? Like, all right. Or are they inclined to be like, oh, yeah, I don't have time to talk to that person. I'm going to press the button and it'll go to voicemail and I'll get to them later. So try to be that, like, positive shining light, because if you're not, it's costing you way more business and way more success than you could possibly imagine.

Benjamin Mena [01:18:35]:
One last question. Rich Rosen wants to know how your life has gotten better with him in your life.

Norman Volsky [01:18:40]:
That's a great question. I love Rich. He's given me really good advice over the years, he will guinea pig any new tech. So I would say other than some of the great advice he's given me and some of the laughs we've shared over the years, it's that Rich is fearless to try new things way before anyone else is willing to try them. So that by the time I'm probably ready, in my very archaic way of doing the business, to try something new, realistically, Rich has already tried it, and I can ask him if it's worth doing or not.

Benjamin Mena [01:19:11]:
Rich was bugging me to ask you that, so love it. Well, I just want to say thank you so much and two things before we let you go. First of all, if somebody wants to follow you, how do they go about doing that?

Norman Volsky [01:19:21]:
Just connect with me on LinkedIn. Again, if you want to learn more about digital health and employee benefits, I do have the podcast the Digital Health Heavyweights. We're also coming out with a short form segment called Bending the Trend, where we're doing an interview series of benefits leaders and benefits consultants. And then, you know, feel free to follow MVP growth partners of everything we share externally and anything else you want

Benjamin Mena [01:19:43]:
to share with the listeners.

Norman Volsky [01:19:44]:
Before I let you go, just again, this is the best business in the world, and it can be anything you want it to be if you have the imagination and the belief in yourself that you can do and accomplish anything. So just don't put limits on yourself. If you don't, no one else can. If you do, doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. It really matters what you think you can accomplish. And if you think you can't, you're right. If you think you can, you're also right.

Benjamin Mena [01:20:13]:
Norm, this is one of the problems with chatting with you. I think it's because we've had the chance to meet face to face, but I looked up and I was like, oh, crap, we're already at 50 minutes. I'm already burning up time. So, like, Norm, I just want to say thank you so much for coming on and sharing. It's one of those stories of how you can really differentiate yourself, how you can set yourself apart of the niche. Here's a blueprint, here's something that you could do. Your mind is now expanded. Let's get to work and go crush the air.

Benjamin Mena [01:20:36]:
Thank you.

Norman Volsky [01:20:37]:
And one last thing. I actually sent this to my firm today. I was in search of hot sauce. So I go to, like, the main area of our office. Our healthcare group's kind of sequestered. I think we're too loud and they don't like that. But I go to grab hot sauce and I happen to notice a couple of earlier in career, recruiters mentioned the word role instead of opportunity. So I sent this email, like, hey, not calling out names, not to embarrass anyone, but, like, word selection is very important.

Norman Volsky [01:21:04]:
And like, you saying role instead of opportunity is like, a small thing, but, like, it's actually bigger than you'd realize in terms of, like, the verbiage. But then I said something else. I said something else that I hear all the time, that people are making this mistake over and over again, and I can't describe how much you sound like everyone else by saying it. How many times have you asked someone, hey, how you doing, Ben? What's going on? And what's their answer? Most of the time, usually it's, oh, man, Ben, I'm so busy. Well, guess what? So is everyone else in the entire world. No one is like, oh, yeah, I got plenty of time. And, like, I wish I had more things to do. So one last thing.

Norman Volsky [01:21:44]:
Like, if you're trying to be different, when people ask, hey, how you doing? What's up? Like, part of this, like, being positive, being, like an optimist, saying you're really busy doesn't get the conversation off to the best start. Like, you want to say something interesting that, like, gets them excited about whatever you're excited about. Like, that starts the relationship. So again, like, another thing I wish you had asked is, like, what is the most rudimentary, like, harmless mistake people make is they answer that question crazy boringly by just saying, oh, I'm really busy. And, like, then you sound like everyone else. Thus you're put in the box with everyone else. So if I encourage anyone to do anything here is just do things differently. Try to be your own person.

Norman Volsky [01:22:30]:
Try to do things your own way. Be authentic to yourself. If you do those things, you'll certainly set yourself apart. You'll certainly have more fun. And if you're having more fun, then you usually have more success as a result.

Benjamin Mena [01:22:43]:
Love that. Well, Norm, thank you. And for the listeners, go crush it.

Norman Volsky [01:22:47]:
Thanks, Ben. Appreciate it. You're awesome at what you do.

Benjamin Mena [01:22:50]:
You know, the resume never tells the full story. Candidates share what really matters during conversations, on calls and interviews, over email. Their motivations, salary expectations, plans to relocate. Most of that detail ends up buried in notes and forgotten. Atlas changes that. It's the AI first recruitment platform built to eliminate admin. It captures every conversation automatically and turns it into something you can use with MagicSearch. You can ask Atlas questions like who talked about wanting a four day week or who mentioned they're open to relocating next year.

Benjamin Mena [01:23:21]:
It searches across your entire database and pulls the answers instantly. No keyword guessing and no digging through old notes. You get insight from real conversations, not limited resume fields. Atlas also makes BD easier with opportunities. You can track and grow client relationships powered by generative AI and built into your existing workflow. If you want visibility, smart dashboards give you a clear view of the pipeline across your business. And that's not theory. Atlas customers have reported over 40% EBITDA growth and over 80% increase in monthly billings after adopting the platform.

Benjamin Mena [01:23:53]:
It's built for agencies that want to grow without adding more manual work. Don't miss the future of recruitment. Get started with Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer at recruit with atlas.com thanks for listening to this episode

Norman Volsky [01:24:09]:
of the Elite Recruiter podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed, hit, subscribe and leave a rating.